Oh the treachery [old fluff question & old ground].

[Brother Amarel]

What you say doesn't make sense because it's not gene-seed that defines ability to become traitor, and if it was it was not DA's case. Treason happens when someone's ego is not happy with what he gets. In several Primarch cases it was that the case... Fulgrim had grandiose visions, Lorgar had the obsession with divinity, Horus had to prove himself the best, Magnus had thirst for knowledge, etc. But the Lion was loyal throughout the whole history and had the bad luck of having a too-human lieutenant that succumbed to jealousy. So You can't pin treachery on gene-seed especially because DA's gee-seed purity is second only to UM. 

 

A flaw in the Geneseed can cause any personality trait to be prevalent. A huge amount of listed Geneseed flaws are personality traits or instincts, that's what marks out and defines the SM that have them. Being stubborn, for example, that's a personality trait and that's passed down, being deceitful, being overly proud, being adventurous, and so on.

 

I'm also slightly wary of picking and choosing from various novels. They're all officially canon unless GW state otherwise, so you have to accept that there is an amount of opinion in there and treat it as such (in the same way that all 40k literature has opposing points of view). The truth is, nearly always, somewhere in the middle. Stating "all of the DA's who are loyal to the Lion say he's not to blame", does not a convincing argument make. 

 

And again, Luther NOT having the Lion's Geneseed is part of my argument. It can't be used as defence against the same argument.

 

Luther DOES NOT have Lion's Geneseed.

The DA going traitor on Caliban is blamed on Luther.

Astral Claws are, very likely, unknowing DA Successors.

Without the required additional vigilance that known DA Successors require, they go rogue.

 

The connecting factors here are NOT Luther (who took the blame), but that two Chapters with the same Geneseed who are not being extra vigilant against Heresy, both turn Traitor. That is not coincidence. At the very least, if you do want to lay the blame on Luther and Lugft Huron, you have to say that that Geneseed of the Lion's doesn't half create an easily pliable Space Marine. That's not good.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think you are making too much assumptions and leaps of faith. First you assume the Lion was a traitor or fence sitter which is incorrect. Its like you're trying to prove the earth is the center if the universe once again because somebody had that idea centuries ago but it was proven wrong. Then you say Astral Claws are DA sucessors when you dont have enough proof but a resemblance on modus operandi and mathematically the chances of them being DA sucessors are around 4%. Then you also assume that the gene-seed is responsable for being rebelious when there are many examples that could prove otherwise. Garviel Loken turned against his own primarch, Khârn only followed Angron because of honor and duty. So your argument stands only on assumptions based on other assumptions and most of them wrong. You have seen testimonies here from several people.. can all they be wrong and you're the only one right? I'll agree to disagree and that's it.

[Captain Semper]

So, is anyone able to point me to a thread on here or a background article somewhere that shows the Lion not to be treacherous at heart.

 

"Loyalty is its own reward" | Horus Heresy series, The Age of Darkness Anthology - Savage Weapons by A D-B. Read it, it's good.

 

[Bryan Blaire]

The Lion was loyal, probably more loyal than any other Loyalist Primarch. After all, so far as we know, all the other Primarchs that ended up entangled with a Greater Demon of a Chaos God all fell (except maybe Sanguinius, and I think the jury might be out of that one considering his gene-sons' mega-flaws) to Chaos EXCEPT the Lion, who withstood the manipulation of a Greater Demon of Tzeentch as a child alone in the Chaos tainted forests of Caliban. About the only other Primarchs anyone should even trust beyond the Lion are the ones that don't seem to have been visited by Greater Demons, such as Guilliman, Vulkan and Corax.

 

Mountains are being made of circumstantial mole hills that fail to stand up to even the most routine inspection. There hasn't even been any evidence provided that DA Successors that don't have extra "watching" go rogue, that's pure speculation by the OP. Name a KNOWN DA Successor that had this problem and you will actually have evidence.

 

Regarding the same concept, to counter the "suspected DA Successor" issue: the Star Phantoms are speculated to be DA Successors found outside the Unforgiven structure, and they have not gone rogue. Speculative argument invalidated by counter-speculative argument.

[Reynolds]

Only thing I should add, is that the Angels of Darkness was never retconned.

They were originally from the point of view of an Traitor who Borealis was unable to break himself, before Astelan was taken to a cell next to Luther. This was when Astelan first time showed signs of tenseness.
It is everyone's own point of view to believe what they want to believe. Astelan believed in his own words/"truth"; and he gave valid counter-arguments to Borealis.

- Astelan still has those points; was he not wrong to protect Humanity and leave Caliban for Terra? Are they to protect humanity, or to protect themselves, while being different from humans

Regardless of this philosophical debate, truth of the matter is that his own "facts" were distorted at some point; as he came to his holding cells in the Rock. No one stated that his stories were the truth, or false; but as Astelan himself is in the HH books; it sheds more light to the desperate time and era.

But the "neutral truth" of the matter of what Astelan said, was not completely true, and Borealis did or did not know the full extent of these historical facts as he was doing this interrogation(he didn't comment on the facts in themselves, Borealis' last line was vague to his Chapter, in what he meant with it precisely).
- Angels of Darkness has a Prequel/Epilogue book that is set in the same planet: Piscina IV; and an aftermath book that also lights a few details on Borealis, the circumstances of Piscina IV before & after Angels of Darkness; even with Veteran Sergeant Naaman in the package.
Prequel: Purging of Kadillus; Epilogue that has its first part out: Ravenwing; both from Gav Thorpe.
***

What this all comes down in to, is that Johnson played a lot with his intuition and relaying everything around him internally. I haven't seen a single Primarch yet do anything I haven't seen a normal human do in terms of human relationships. They are very much humane, on every level; psychologically.

- Lion is easily misunderstood, because he only lets on tops 1-5 people "close to him", everyone else he keeps more than an arm's reach, including his brothers. This isn't just non-trusting nature from him; it is a safety precaution to evaluate everyone around him, at a deep; internal level, that can give him a deep understanding of almost everyone. As an 6th sense; but none can perceive through him; and he doesn't wish to spend energy on getting people to like him.

He has his edge; but it is an double-edged blade. A natural leader; but hard to "actually get to know", that can cause a lot of unjustified paranoia in people who don't know him well enough(and the reasoning behind his decisions all the time; even if he is right). He takes all the angles in to consideration; but when he believes he is doing something right; it can bite him grimly, afterwards.

- This is what has happened and what I read in every book that portrays/shows his character:
He knows by intuition what is the best, even when his advisers don't; and that can be off putting towards everyone around him; but it is not 100% safe/accurate; even if accurate most of the time. Hence he doesn't let too many get too close to him(for they can take advantage of him); ever... and this is what some people are like, in real life.

[Grand Master Belial]

Some food for thought in the discussion was back before the Red Corsairs were given their own paint job and the Horus Heresy books were just a dream, the 'Eavy Metal Team painted up a couple or Red Corsairs. One was a Dark Angel with red X's over their iconography. That would imply that at least an individual brother could turn his back on the chapter and embrace the lures of Chaos. I believe the other was a Space Wolf ...

[Aegnor]

I think the Lion has flaws of an overly distrustful nature and a level of arrogance and ambition. But not treachery.

 

He wanted to be recognised as the greatest of his brothers and have the mantle of Warmaster, but not to the extent that Horus did.

 

He arrives at conclusions inhumanly swiftly and acts very decisively on them. And his frame of reference for lots of these decisions is one of mistrust. Hence he exiles Luther. Hence he kills Nemiel. Hence he fears Guilliman is acting as a traitor.

 

But it is also clear, to me, that the other great reference point for his decision making is utter loyalty to the Emperor.

[Gillyfish]

One thing it's perhaps worth pointing out that is a flaw in the geneseed argument is that is you look at Chapters founded since the Heresy, a number have turned renegade or to Chaos. Most chapters are descended from the Ultramarines so why aren't we asking the question about their geneseed? I suspect because the number of Chapters to have turned is tiny when compared to the overall number of Chapters. The same thing applies to the Dark Angels. None of the canon successors have turned and the Astral Claws are the only Chapter that may have connections with the DA to do so since the heresy.

 

We also have to consider the question of how Chapters fall. It is rarely a sudden thing; there is usually some subtle change that corrupts over time. Luther is a case in point. With the Astral Claws, there is some suggestion that the corruption was brought in from the assimilation of the Tiger Claws. Chaos is manipulative, it plays on primal urges and gradually seduces and corrupts. Is that due to a flaw in the geneseed? Probably not, or you might expect there to be even more renegade chapters than there are.

 

So I would suggest that flaws in geneseed provide avenues for Chaos to exploit. For example, the red thirst of the Blood Angels could make the susceptible to Khorne. The feral nature of the Space Wolves might also point them in Khorne's direction. The Pride of the Fists could be exploited by Slaanesh and so on. But none of these Chapters have turned despite having more noticeable geneseed flaws than the Dark Angels. The Dark Angels are almost certainly paranoid about their own number turning, but that does not speak necessarily to a gene-flaw so much as a determined response to ensure it can never happen again.

 

I don't think that the Dark Angels are any more susceptible to Chaos than the other chapters, perhaps less so because of their vigilance. In the heresy, Luther was a trusted individual with great standing in the Legion and was able to influence those around him (and there are enough real world examples of influential individuals getting their subordinates to undertake questionable activities that we can assume that this is a plausible reason for why so many turned). It does need mean that the reason was geneseed, although you could suggest that because Caliban had been tainted by Chaos, its inhabitants might have been pre-disposed to its influence. Again though, that's not to with geneseed but pre-existing influences.

[Brother dean]

In the end, the heresy was only commited by one man. A charismatic and popular commander chose to not be loyal to his oaths (be it Horus or Luther or Huron.) All of the other marines just followed orders.

[No Foes Remain]

In the end, the heresy was only commited by one man. A charismatic and popular commander chose to not be loyal to his oaths (be it Horus or Luther or Huron.) All of the other marines just followed orders.

In the Tyrant's defence, the High Lords refused to support him after removing the Charnal Guard from the Wardens so he just cemented control over the Maelstrom zone which the foolish Karthago lords didn't like but he was within his right as leader of the Maelstrom Wardens and a Master of an Astartes Chapter. Then it just went downhill from there due to the Karthago lords acting like spoilt brats when something doesn't go their way.

[Wade Garrett]

In the end, the heresy was only commited by one man. A charismatic and popular commander chose to not be loyal to his oaths (be it Horus or Luther or Huron.) All of the other marines just followed orders.

"Humanity's weakest souls will always cling to the words "I was just following orders". They cower behind them, making a virtue of their own failures, lionizing brutality over nobility."

 

Argel Tal, Lord of the Gal Vorbak

[Komrk]

The Lion wasn't a traitor, but he did cause the treachery within the Legion. Even as far back as when they killed the last of the monsters, the Lion took all the credit despite the fact that none of it could have happened without Luther. Pretty much Luther was the star of the Order until the Lion came along, then Luther makes the Lion successful and then gets none of the credit. I can imagine why he would be angry. And then Caliban got completely destroyed by the Imperium in the name of industry which then caused more people to move to the areas that were more strongly affected by Chaos because they were now safe. Pretty much the Lion was too proud, arrogant, and paranoid for his own good and caused the Fallen to exist.

[Bryan Blaire]

It's a pretty far stretch to say that one person, even an almost demi-god, is directly responsible for the knowingly chosen actions of 30,000+ people. That's an apologist route.

 

At best, you can argue that the actions of one may opened the door for the actions of many. But he didn't stand there tossing them through the door. Decisions were made and those making them are responsible, not the person that opened the door. Even Luther isn't directly responsible for all the actions of the Fallen.

[Aegnor]

Yeah, why stop at blaming the Lion. He really had no choice over the way fate shaped him either. It's all obviously the. Emperor's fault.

[Brother dean]

It's a pretty far stretch to say that one person, even an almost demi-god, is directly responsible for the knowingly chosen actions of 30,000+ people. That's an apologist route.

 

At best, you can argue that the actions of one may opened the door for the actions of many. But he didn't stand there tossing them through the door. Decisions were made and those making them are responsible, not the person that opened the door. Even Luther isn't directly responsible for all the actions of the Fallen.

 

 

Yeah, why stop at blaming the Lion. He really had no choice over the way fate shaped him either. It's all obviously the. Emperor's fault.

But on the other hand.....

 

Look around you IRL...  How many people around you  do not want to think critically about what they are being told.  I hear people complaining about how misguided Ukip and Fox news and Move On.org are but they have followers even after being shown conclusive proof that (insert organization name here) is manipulating the "truth" to fit their own ends.  The truth is that the more persuasive the personallity, the more followers they will pick up.  Some of those will have thought it through and chosen...  Others are just bandwagon jumping.  

 

Mob rule is a proven phenomenon.

[Wade Garrett]

Hundreds of thousands marching in lockstep behind one Great Man (or Great Woman) who bears the sole responsibility for their actions is not "mob rule".

 

It's almost the opposite of it.

 

"I was just following orders" was debunked as a credible defense a looooooong time ago.

 

Or:

 

"Always remember that your soul is in your keeping, and yours alone, even when those who would move you are men of power. When at the end you stand before God, you cannot say "But I was commanded to do thus" or that virtue was not convenient at the time. This will not suffice. Do you understand?"

 

-Baldwin, the Leper King

[Brother dean]

You are applying 21st century legal precidence to 40K....    I rebut with:

 

++Thought for the day: Only the awkward question; only the foolish ask twice++

 

++There is no Innocence only degrees of Guilt.++  =I=

 

If you question in 40k you are shot for your trouble....  30k might have been different but the great many of them only followed orders.

[Wade Garrett]

If you question in 40k you are shot for your trouble.... 30k might have been different but the great many of them only followed orders.

They had a choice. Isstvan III proved that. Narek of the XVII and Dantioch of the IV proved that.

 

It doesn't matter what pap the Traitors vomit up to comfort themselves. It doesn't matter if they blame Erebus, Typhon, Luther, Huron, Curze, or Horus from now until the end of time.

 

It changes nothing. They sealed their own fates when they freely chose to spit on their oaths to the Emperor and their brothers. There is only one thing that needs to be said to such filth:

 

Repent today! For tomorrow you die!

[Onisuzume]

You are applying 21st century legal precidence to 40K....    I rebut with:

 

++[/size]Thought for the day: Only the awkward question; only the foolish ask twice++[/size]

 

++There is no Innocence only degrees of Guilt.++  =I=

 

If you question in 40k you are shot for your trouble....  30k might have been different but the great many of them only followed orders.

≡][≡ ++A plea of innocence is guilty of waiting my time. Guilty.++ ≡][≡

It doesn't matter what pap the Traitors vomit up to comfort themselves. It doesn't matter if they blame Erebus, Typhon, Luther, Huron, Curze, or Horus from now until the end of time.

The Heretic shall reap as he has sown: the bitter harvest of vengeance and death.

[Aegnor]

Burn them all. The Emperor will know His own.

[Bryan Blaire]

We know there was some choice involved on Caliban and we know it can't be mere gene-seed causing the issue, because some of those DA on Caliban became Fallen and some chose to resist, hence the green painted power armor Cypher wears.

 

This matter should be settled. Based on all actual evidence we have, DA gen-seed doesn't make any Marine more or less prone to disloyalty than any other Marine gene-seed does nor should it be trusted any less than any other loyalist gene-seed is simply because it is DA gene-seed, when the actions of other Loyalist Primarchs are as questionable as the Lion's actions were. Anything beyond this is simply personal speculation and has no bearing on the reality of the story. Additionally, the story-stated fact that both Fallen and non-Fallen DA existed on Caliban prior to the arrival of the Lion's fleet, with the Loyalist DA being those opposed to Luther, we can see that simply being DA doesn't make one prone to simply "be a traitor" without a choice being involved.

[Aegnor]

Besides, it's so much more grimdark if the DA's end up paranoid, ruthless and secretive not because of some immutable aspect of their biology, but because they warp their psyches out of fear and secret shame. Then it's a tragedy because they could be different if they could ever break the cycle, but they never will.

[Cactus]

That was Boreas' revelation at the end of Angels of Darkness, but for some readers Astelan's duplicitous testimony grabs their attention more.

[djgoldsmith]

To me the actions of the lion in unremembered empire cleared up any loyalty issues.

But it left one big question (which needs to be resolved)

 

Old fluff had the Lion and Russ fighting to terra from the back end of the universe.

This was supported with the whole Night Stalker thing in Prince of crows etc.

 

However:

 

 

 

The end of unremembered empire has Rowboat, sanguinious (who both made the final battle)

And the Lion in the same place. We assume they are getting ready to rock down to terra to defend the emperor.

2 of the 3 made it, so what happened to Johnson?

 

 

 

I am sure it will be resolved. Probably a continuation of the Lion / Curze story arc.

[Azoriel]

Roboute Guilliman wasn't there either - he arrived last out of everyone, with his forces relatively intact (so thus was so successful in influencing policy).  The Lion arrived with Leman Russ, missing the Siege of Terra by mere moments; their pending arrival was what triggered the end of the siege, forcing Horus to drop his shields to goad the Emperor into mounting a counter-offensive (which He did). 

Guilliman's late arrival was extremely opportune, but nobody questioned Guilliman's loyalty for this, not even when he had the navy firing at the Imperial Fists (who had fought the entire duration of the siege).  Not that his loyalty should be questioned - he's as loyal as the Lion, I'm sure - but he certainly came out of this further ahead than any of his other supposedly fence-sitting brothers did.