If Abbaddon Succeeds

[Wade Garrett]

A little like this:

 

"What was that speedbump?"

 

"All of the Red Corsairs and the Word Bearers, I think."

 

"Oh, right."

Well, I'm certainly not going to argue the Black Legion's strength with the man whose next three novels will determine said strength.

 

(Not that I honestly believe you'd bump up Abaddon's numbers by ten times what they originally were in The Talon of Horus first draft just to spite some random guy on the Iinterwebz.)

 

But...how do I put this...

 

I accept that Abaddon is THE big dog in the Eye of Terror. But the idea that he could just trivially steamroll over not just any single rival faction but the next two or three strongest rival factions combined...

 

I hate it. I hate it as much as I hated all the "All Space Marines either want to be Ultramarines or they're deviants slowly going extinct" from 5th edition.

 

I hate it because what it says to me is that there are two kinds of Chaos Space Marines, Abaddon and the Black Legion who are the biggest and most powerful and actually matter, and these other insignificant nobodies off in a corner who are, in the grand scheme of things, irrelevant.

 

Now, I may be mountain climbing over a molehill with this whole thing, and I recognize that comparing something to the 5th ed Space Marine Codex is only slightly less inflammatory than insulting people's mothers.

 

But that's how I feel regardless.

[Kol Saresk]

When do we get Talon of Horus again so we can put the whole thing back together?

 

Amazon says November?! What am I supposed to read till then...

Flashgitz web comics and Wobbly Model Syndrome.

[Rain]

ADB is just really trying to undo the whole "Failbaddon" meme and make Abaddon and the Black Legion the bad motherlovers instead of bad punchlines. That said, the idea of "biggest baddest most unstoppable-est guys like, ever" is indeed not very appealing and smacks of Mat Ward or the recent Imperial Fists supplement fluff in which Lysander wins every single battle he has ever been involved in and just runs around the universe smacking around this poor sap Warsmith Shun'tu, who appears to be a loveably incompetent comic book villain.

 

Eh, we shall see. I am certainly among the less rabid of ADB's coterie of Chaos player fanboys, but he has yet to commit any truly grevious offenses against fluff or good taste so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. At least until Sevatar gets written in as a Grey Knight. Other than that, I'm sure he will use some restraint in his portrayal of the BL, especially as they end up losing, or at least not fully succeeding. Though I suppose this could serve to trivialize other Chaos factions further if the BL is shown to curb stomp rival Chaos factions when they are led by Abaddon but then have their whole merry Crusade thingy blunted by a few hundred Imperial Fists, Black Templars, and some guard regiments. I suppose we shall see. It hardly matters anyway, we all know we are going to read the BL trilogy anyway.

[Kol Saresk]

Maybe, but remember the Gothic War? The fluff then tried hard to push it that Abaddon was after a very specific objective: the Blackstone Fortresses. And Drach'nyen is a spoil from one of the earliest Black Crusades. That and every single Black Crusade, even the ones that aren't numbered, have always always always always always had high casualty rates for the Imperium saw dozens of worlds burn. To call them failures is comparative to calling the Imperium surviving them a flawless victory.

 

The 6th Edition Codex, at least the Index Chaotica: Possessed, and Void Stalker all point to the first eleven Crusades having specific goals, much like the background for the 12th Crusade points to it being a testing ground for the Planetkiller as well as a capture and hold of the Blackstone Fortresses, of which he did seize two.

 

And remember 3.5? Remember when it introduces Abaddon's four lieutenants with that little blurb about some assassins getting debriefed? And how it just casually throws in there that two of them had been sent by Abaddon to capture the Heart of Chaos, deep within the Eye? Sounds like a very specific goal to me.

 

Not to mention:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-faRL2iAwC6A/UlnYcc-GATI/AAAAAAAAEJ8/vsODLsVuZDQ/s1600/Warhammer_Black_Crusades.jpg

We know the goal of the First Black Crusade was to claim Drach'nyen.

 

Index Chaotica: Possessed shows the goal of the Fifth Black Crusade was to claim possession of certain relics.

 

The Twelfth Black Crusade was to claim the Blackstone Fortresses.

 

Now, this picture shows something funny. It shows the 13th reaching Cadia. And then it shows a projected course.

 

Now see, something had been striking me funny for a while.

 

When the Eye of Terror campaign was finished, there was no mention of the Thirteenth Black Crusade being finished. In fact, it said the Crusade was ongoing as it headed to Terra.

 

And then we get to know. Many of us assumed that because there was no more mention of breaking out of Terra, that we had been retconned to a time point before the Crusade even happened.

 

I think we(myself included) were wrong. The Eye of Terror campaign wasn't the 13th Black Crusade. It was the Blitzkrieg. The first strike. The Crusade comes after Cadia.

 

What helped me come to this conclusion was a little tidbit from Void Stalker. About how the first twelve crusades were merely crusades. But that the Thirteenth, it was going to be the war. The war that would burn Terra to the ground.

 

The fluff hasn't been retconned. It has been merely focussing on the steps taken to ensure the Thirteenth Black Crusade's existence. Such as building and testing the first Planetkiller. Capturing the Blackstone Fortresses. Claiming Drach'nyen. Destroying the shipyards and Forgeworld at Crythe.

 

The Imperium is beyond dented. It's been ventilated.

I'd hardly call Crusades that stretch across the galaxy "failures", but that's just me.

 

I've heard said once that when one plays chess, they need to think one move ahead. But a good chess player will be two steps ahead. A great chess player will be five steps ahead. The best chess player will let his opponent think he's winning right up until checkmate.

 

And I've said it once and I'll say it again, there are little tidbits that point to a bigger overall on the more "recent background revelations" all over the place. Just gotta look for them.

[Rain]

Yeah, he got Drachnyen and the Blackstone Fortresses, but he never really broke the Cadian Gate. Most of the Crusades end with him facing more Imperials than he can really fight and he loses or runs away, the only one that didn't involve that was the attack on Antecanis when he just struck and fled, without losing first like he did in the first or in the Gothic War, in which by the way, Abaddon only managed to capture 2 out of the 6 Blackstones before getting beaten up and running back to the warp. Though yes, he has captured some artifacts and whatnot along the way. Oh and horrific casualties are nothing to the Imperium. The Imperium inflicts horrific casualties on itself all the time whenever it suspects heresy, life is cheap. As Stalin supposedly once said when one of his generals told him that he was throwing away troops in pointless battles "what does it matter, they will always make more".

But whatever, I am actually all for the Crusades looking less like failures since even though I'm not that fond of Abaddon (or the Black Legion really) I think that Chaos is the most logical choice for an arch enemy for the Imperium as Necrons and Tyranids are too faceless and impersonal. The whole fratricide thing makes for much better space opera.

As kind of an aside, I guess the reason Abaddon doesn't strike me as an interesting Chaos character is that he has always been kind of a . The HH novels have only perpetuated this, him and Typhus, and most other traitor characters were always brash and arrogant and just all around insufferable. I actually have to give ADB a lot of credit here for making Lorgar and Argel Tal actually good sympathetic characters before their fall, and preventing the fall itself from just being a flick of a switch but a long process of slowly corrupting ideals and demonic coercion. Abaddon on the other hand has niether charm nor tragedy about him. He is just a big brute that's good at killing people and likes to repress those weaker than himself. Even Khârn is more interesting as he was once the Legion's cool head that was slowly driven to insanity by Butcher's Nails and his growing hatred for what he saw as weakness. Abaddon is just a .

[A D-B]

 

A little like this:

 

"What was that speedbump?"

 

"All of the Red Corsairs and the Word Bearers, I think."

 

"Oh, right."

Well, I'm certainly not going to argue the Black Legion's strength with the man whose next three novels will determine said strength.

 

(Not that I honestly believe you'd bump up Abaddon's numbers by ten times what they originally were in The Talon of Horus first draft just to spite some random guy on the Iinterwebz.)

 

But...how do I put this...

 

I accept that Abaddon is THE big dog in the Eye of Terror. But the idea that he could just trivially steamroll over not just any single rival faction but the next two or three strongest rival factions combined...

 

 

You can tell when I'm screwing around on here, because I do the dialogue in italics (and it's usually stupid). Don't take those three lines too seriously, dude.

 

Besides, the next three novels are basically the very beginning of the Black Legion and the First Black Crusade. Not its 40K strength or anything. We'll get there later in the series.

[A D-B]

Wait...

 

At least until Sevatar gets written in as a Grey Knight.

 

This is what my inbox looks like every day. People wanting it. People not wanting it. People angry about it not happening yet. People angry about it possibly happening at some point in the future.

 

I have the weirdest job.

[Kol Saresk]

@Rain: Well going by the picture, the 1st and 9th Crusades broke through the Cadian Gate and the Eye of Terror campaign ended with Abaddon breaking it wide open. But besides that, the 5th, 7th, 11th and 12th spread out all the way into another Segmentum, specifically the Ultima Segmentum in the Galactic East. One even reaches the Maelstrom. The shortest one looks to be a tie between the 2nd and 10th Crusades and they still get out a further distance than Cadia. So honestly, just the picture says that even the earliest and smallest Black Crusades had enough momentum to do some damage to the defenses around the Eye, and even pierce them in at least four different occasions.

 

And the 12th Black Crusade, IIRC, Abaddon captured three of the Blackstones. And while he was capturing a fourth, he tried to use their superweapon to destroy the Imperial forces. When an Imperial captain kamikaze'd the focusing point, it disrupted the energy flow. And when Abaddon realized his fortresses were in danger, he retreated. And then the remaining three plus the one he left behind self-destructed. Which left Abaddon with the only two left in existence.

 

The only true losses he suffered was 1 Blackstone Fortress and a Planetkiller. If you want to call that being beaten up, sure. But since he was able to build another Planetkiller, a bloody nose seems more apt. IMHO.

[Clone]

Well this thread got big :D

 

Some really interesting theories in here. I had forgotten about the Crimson Path. It'd be interesting to see how the Chaos Gods would react to Abaddon if he became Emperor. I could actually imagine the Tyranids and Necrons being toppled by warp storms and plenty of summoned daemons.

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

 

A little like this:

 

"What was that speedbump?"

 

"All of the Red Corsairs and the Word Bearers, I think."

 

"Oh, right."

Well, I'm certainly not going to argue the Black Legion's strength with the man whose next three novels will determine said strength.

 

(Not that I honestly believe you'd bump up Abaddon's numbers by ten times what they originally were in The Talon of Horus first draft just to spite some random guy on the Iinterwebz.)

 

But...how do I put this...

 

I accept that Abaddon is THE big dog in the Eye of Terror. But the idea that he could just trivially steamroll over not just any single rival faction but the next two or three strongest rival factions combined...

 

You can tell when I'm screwing around on here, because I do the dialogue in italics (and it's usually stupid). Don't take those three lines too seriously, dude.

 

Besides, the next three novels are basically the very beginning of the Black Legion and the First Black Crusade. Not its 40K strength or anything. We'll get there later in the series.

What is this "hew-more" and "screwing around" you speak of, good sir?

 

I am a serious person. 40k is a serious universe. I take it very, VERY seriously.

 

;)

 

Anyway, point taken.

[greggles]

Has anyone ever considered for a moment, that the emperors golden thrones actual purpose might be to keep him in check? And the reason that the chaos gods don't want Abaddon to succeed, is because they know what might happen if the throne is destroyed and the emperor is freed.

[incinerator950]

Problem is trying to call a Crusade a seperate War, in part of a massive
and spanning millenia War.  The problem is with these repeated codexes
and "blah blah Ultramarines/Wolves/Fists" or "trololol Eldar, trolololol
orks, herro Tau", we're not seeing results, on either side of the
spectrum. You have specific goals being met like any objective based plan, but honestly, we know the plan is to break through the Gate, gain difinitive victories, and smash Terra.  Honestly if two or three Primarchs allied themselves and got faster results, Abbadon would be a stepping stone.

 

Has anyone ever considered for a moment, that the emperors golden thrones actual purpose might be to keep him in check? And the reason that the chaos gods don't want Abaddon to succeed, is because they know what might happen if the throne is destroyed and the emperor is freed.

 

That would require planning beyond marketing sales.

[Wade Garrett]

Has anyone ever considered for a moment, that the emperors golden thrones actual purpose might be to keep him in check? And the reason that the chaos gods don't want Abaddon to succeed, is because they know what might happen if the throne is destroyed and the emperor is freed.

Considered it, realized that would make Rogal Dorn the real Arch Traitor of the Heresy, laughed uproariously, then dismissed it.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Yeah, he got Drachnyen and the Blackstone Fortresses, but he never really broke the Cadian Gate. Most of the Crusades end with him facing more Imperials than he can really fight and he loses or runs away, the only one that didn't involve that was the attack on Antecanis when he just struck and fled, without losing first like he did in the first or in the Gothic War, in which by the way, Abaddon only managed to capture 2 out of the 6 Blackstones before getting beaten up and running back to the warp. Though yes, he has captured some artifacts and whatnot along the way. Oh and horrific casualties are nothing to the Imperium. The Imperium inflicts horrific casualties on itself all the time whenever it suspects heresy, life is cheap. As Stalin supposedly once said when one of his generals told him that he was throwing away troops in pointless battles "what does it matter, they will always make more".

 

But whatever, I am actually all for the Crusades looking less like failures since even though I'm not that fond of Abaddon (or the Black Legion really) I think that Chaos is the most logical choice for an arch enemy for the Imperium as Necrons and Tyranids are too faceless and impersonal. The whole fratricide thing makes for much better space opera.

 

As kind of an aside, I guess the reason Abaddon doesn't strike me as an interesting Chaos character is that he has always been kind of a :cuss . The HH novels have only perpetuated this, him and Typhus, and most other traitor characters were always brash and arrogant and just all around insufferable. I actually have to give ADB a lot of credit here for making Lorgar and Argel Tal actually good sympathetic characters before their fall, and preventing the fall itself from just being a flick of a switch but a long process of slowly corrupting ideals and demonic coercion. Abaddon on the other hand has niether charm nor tragedy about him. He is just a big brute that's good at killing people and likes to repress those weaker than himself. Even Khârn is more interesting as he was once the Legion's cool head that was slowly driven to insanity by Butcher's Nails and his growing hatred for what he saw as weakness. Abaddon is just a :cuss .

He's not really as proud or brutish after Terra. Look at the difference between him in the first 3 Horus Heresy books and in Chosen of Chaos. In the HH he is this very proud, serious and honorable warrior who takes offense when someone insults his warrior's pride. But after Terra, he let's a Chapter Master spit in his face. Old Abaddon would have flipped out and killed him, New Abaddon just laughed at him.

[incinerator950]

Obviously no one was the same after Horus died.

[Vesper]

Has anyone ever considered for a moment, that the emperors golden thrones actual purpose might be to keep him in check? And the reason that the chaos gods don't want Abaddon to succeed, is because they know what might happen if the throne is destroyed and the emperor is freed.

 

That's why he asked to be put on it.

Oh wait...

[Vesper]

Yeah, he got Drachnyen and the Blackstone Fortresses, but he never really broke the Cadian Gate. Most of the Crusades end with him facing more Imperials than he can really fight and he loses or runs away, the only one that didn't involve that was the attack on Antecanis when he just struck and fled, without losing first like he did in the first or in the Gothic War, in which by the way, Abaddon only managed to capture 2 out of the 6 Blackstones before getting beaten up and running back to the warp. Though yes, he has captured some artifacts and whatnot along the way. Oh and horrific casualties are nothing to the Imperium. The Imperium inflicts horrific casualties on itself all the time whenever it suspects heresy, life is cheap. As Stalin supposedly once said when one of his generals told him that he was throwing away troops in pointless battles "what does it matter, they will always make more".

But whatever, I am actually all for the Crusades looking less like failures since even though I'm not that fond of Abaddon (or the Black Legion really) I think that Chaos is the most logical choice for an arch enemy for the Imperium as Necrons and Tyranids are too faceless and impersonal. The whole fratricide thing makes for much better space opera.

As kind of an aside, I guess the reason Abaddon doesn't strike me as an interesting Chaos character is that he has always been kind of a . The HH novels have only perpetuated this, him and Typhus, and most other traitor characters were always brash and arrogant and just all around insufferable. I actually have to give ADB a lot of credit here for making Lorgar and Argel Tal actually good sympathetic characters before their fall, and preventing the fall itself from just being a flick of a switch but a long process of slowly corrupting ideals and demonic coercion. Abaddon on the other hand has niether charm nor tragedy about him. He is just a big brute that's good at killing people and likes to repress those weaker than himself. Even Khârn is more interesting as he was once the Legion's cool head that was slowly driven to insanity by Butcher's Nails and his growing hatred for what he saw as weakness. Abaddon is just a .

He's not really as proud or brutish after Terra. Look at the difference between him in the first 3 Horus Heresy books and in Chosen of Chaos. In the HH he is this very proud, serious and honorable warrior who takes offense when someone insults his warrior's pride. But after Terra, he let's a Chapter Master spit in his face. Old Abaddon would have flipped out and killed him, New Abaddon just laughed at him.

... and then killed him

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, he got Drachnyen and the Blackstone Fortresses, but he never really broke the Cadian Gate. Most of the Crusades end with him facing more Imperials than he can really fight and he loses or runs away, the only one that didn't involve that was the attack on Antecanis when he just struck and fled, without losing first like he did in the first or in the Gothic War, in which by the way, Abaddon only managed to capture 2 out of the 6 Blackstones before getting beaten up and running back to the warp. Though yes, he has captured some artifacts and whatnot along the way. Oh and horrific casualties are nothing to the Imperium. The Imperium inflicts horrific casualties on itself all the time whenever it suspects heresy, life is cheap. As Stalin supposedly once said when one of his generals told him that he was throwing away troops in pointless battles "what does it matter, they will always make more".

But whatever, I am actually all for the Crusades looking less like failures since even though I'm not that fond of Abaddon (or the Black Legion really) I think that Chaos is the most logical choice for an arch enemy for the Imperium as Necrons and Tyranids are too faceless and impersonal. The whole fratricide thing makes for much better space opera.

As kind of an aside, I guess the reason Abaddon doesn't strike me as an interesting Chaos character is that he has always been kind of a . The HH novels have only perpetuated this, him and Typhus, and most other traitor characters were always brash and arrogant and just all around insufferable. I actually have to give ADB a lot of credit here for making Lorgar and Argel Tal actually good sympathetic characters before their fall, and preventing the fall itself from just being a flick of a switch but a long process of slowly corrupting ideals and demonic coercion. Abaddon on the other hand has niether charm nor tragedy about him. He is just a big brute that's good at killing people and likes to repress those weaker than himself. Even Khârn is more interesting as he was once the Legion's cool head that was slowly driven to insanity by Butcher's Nails and his growing hatred for what he saw as weakness. Abaddon is just a .

He's not really as proud or brutish after Terra. Look at the difference between him in the first 3 Horus Heresy books and in Chosen of Chaos. In the HH he is this very proud, serious and honorable warrior who takes offense when someone insults his warrior's pride. But after Terra, he let's a Chapter Master spit in his face. Old Abaddon would have flipped out and killed him, New Abaddon just laughed at him.

... and then killed him

And used his body to act as a vessel for the very daemon that devoured his soul.

[helterskelter]

i don't think leman russ would be so inclined to let chaos go forth so rampantly. and then vulkan would be a thorn. And jaghatai would blast out the webway on his giant space jetbike. and corax doing his shadowy thing. just thought i'd throw some extra values into your equations, not trying to poopoo what your all saying. Coz it would be cool for some progression

[daveNYC]

Bah, Russ is currently held captive by Magnus and has been forced to watch the Imperium devolve for the past 9000 years.  Vulkan is probably a house guest of Trazyn, Jaghatai is the main attraction in the Commorragh arenas, and Corax is just living in a cave feeling sorry for himself.

 

About the only loyalist primarch that could be counted on to show up is The Lion, and even then he's likely to facepalm himself to death once he hears exactly what steps the Dark Angels have taken to keep their secret.

[Kol Saresk]

Provided Prince Charming ever comes along and gives the Lion the Waking Kiss.

[Clone]

Provided Prince Charming ever comes along and gives the Lion the Waking Kiss.

Or someone finally opens that door that they never open for the reason that no one has ever opened it before. Ooo secrets the Dark Angels say. Ooo forbidden knowledge the inner circle say. OooooOOOooooo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Secrets.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Provided Prince Charming ever comes along and gives the Lion the Waking Kiss.

Or someone finally opens that door that they never open for the reason that no one has ever opened it before. Ooo secrets the Dark Angels say. Ooo forbidden knowledge the inner circle say. OooooOOOooooo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Secrets.

 

 

An open door is the path to Heresy.

[Clone]

 

 

 

 

 

Provided Prince Charming ever comes along and gives the Lion the Waking Kiss.

Or someone finally opens that door that they never open for the reason that no one has ever opened it before. Ooo secrets the Dark Angels say. Ooo forbidden knowledge the inner circle say. OooooOOOooooo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Secrets.

 

An open door is the path to Heresy.

Unless your supposedly loyal Primarch is behind it.

[Brother Heinrich]

http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q532/mv8830/3275974_zps05db5d13.jpg