old vs new?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

fluff wise, which do you prefer?

 

personally i love the old fluff. it made about as much sense as you could expect a story with 7-8ft tall genetically engineered super humans could make.

 

however i find the new fluff tends to contradict the old with out GW ever coming out and saying the old is no longer valid (ie immortal marines) and some of it is just ridiculous, like astorath's story line...makes no sense to me at all.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

could you be more specific on which things you actually disagree with? As to me the Fluff hasn't changed that much at all.

[knife&fork]

I think a lot of problems (besides the fact that there are just so many authors working on the fluff) is how some people latch on to one tiny piece of fluff, taken out of context, and then think of it as canon.

 

This 'marines are immortal' is one of those. Another good example is 'ork tech only works because orks think it does'. The latter is based off one short story where a tech priest (the guys who believe you need incense and prayers to work a screwdriver) determines that ork tech shouldn't work because it doesn't work as he expects. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

could you be more specific on which things you actually disagree with? As to me the Fluff hasn't changed that much at all.

 

 

for example codex canon says that blood angles are amongst the longest lived marines indicating that marines have a natural life span though prolonged, and that the blood angles' life span is even longer than normal. then you have a HH books stating that marines are in fact immortal and have no natural death. that is a clear contradiction.

 

also astorath. they created him saying he travels all over the galaxy decapitating brothers who fall to the black rage and survive battle. well i'm sure that there are several battle brothers falling in to short of a time for him to hear about it, finish off the brother he's with, travel to the next place and finish off the next brother. not to mention he must be the most skilled warrior in the universe to be able to have a no lose streak against every blood angel that's fallen to the rage that he's ever faced, the statistics just don't add up...i've been out of the community for a while, and those are the two that stick out immediately after 3yrs out.

[knife&fork]

For the immortal marines.... is it clearly stated? The great crusade didn't even last long enough for Marines to hit their natural expiration date, it could well be that people thought them to be immortal at the time.

[Blindhamster]

marines are not immortal, even in current fluff, there is the salamander that is found fused to his command throne as hes been there so long, he dies shortly after the other characters meet him, and he only lasts so long through a combination of being in the warp and his body basically switching off...

 

other than that, we've not had any mention of marines living so long. And the comment in the one heresy novel is that they are believed to be functionally immortal, but that nobody knows as none have lived long enough yet.

 

As far as Atorath is concerned, He's supposed to go from battlefield to battlefield, and kills those that fall once the battle is over, if he is not there, the marines are put in stasis till the next battle etc.

[infyrana]

Yeah, well, changes happen, or it would be a very stale game franchise by now.

 

Take everyone in this thread for example - have GW / FW hire us all - say we all decide to make novels or fluffy material - we all have awesome ideas.  It's new stuff, it'll be additional and different to what was created before us, but we would be doing it with the best intentions and using our own minds to do it.  But in order for us to have a job, we'd have to create new stuff... be it in the current expanding universe, something that is new in it, or something that had existed previously but we only now make it known (because we just invented it), or be it in the old universe (changing, expanding, adding to the history existing).  There are other things we could do for fluffy material or new novels... but that's just some examples.

 

Now, after all the work 'we' do alongside each other for the betterment of the game, don't you think there will be flaws and/or holes or something that could have been done differently?  Sure there would be !  Do you think the editors would be able to correct it all ?  Afterall, they are like us, just more people with different and individual ideas and their own interpretation of the universe.  No, I doubt the editors catch it all or think of everything (we are thousands here on the forums playing the games etc, they are few).

 

So, as for Astorath - someone had an awesome idea for a potential new character, fluffy and definitely with the idea of fitting in the Grim Reaper concept into the already awesome DC part of BA's.  But how to do it 100% fluffy and 100% flaw free... well, that's a challenge I wouldn't like to try and beat.  Adding a unique new (yet old) character into a close nit community of dying brothers, a tough act to follow.  Maybe they over did his role, but the idea was there, just needed a bit of work perhaps.

 

As for the life span of space marines - now that's something that bugs me too!  You have space marines being referred to as immortal yeah, or long life span, etc etc.  Then you get others that say the space marine looks old or is old and slower than younger recruits (just re-read Flight of the E).  If they physically 'grow' to one age and simply live a long life with that figure of a man, then do they really age physically beyond that as they don't look to physically change?  One minute you have Dante aging as long as he has but still wears the same suit of armour and fights harder (stats) than he did when he was a basic marine, and other recruits a fifth of that age and being called old and slow (don't ask me to cite examples, but it is the impression I get).  With Flight of the E, the author talks about the command squad power fist wielding Solun Decius, he comes across as a young soldier with absolutely no real regard for the use of his bolter et al.  The author talks about him like he's a raw recruit who's not even had a full day as a scout without his power armour yet.  This is a marine serving with the 7th company's battle captain as a member of his command squad.

 

Consistency is not a key thing between different authors and their ideas.  That's where a lot of troubles arise, but also where all the variety comes from.

 

Some of the new stuff is great, as is plenty of the old stuff, ...some of it (Astorath's fluff killing every fallen DC, Centurion models, life span discrepancies) leaves a lot to be desired or in need of more clarification/consistency.

 

The addition of the Horus Heresy in full swing through the HH books and 30k gaming rules all tying up is going a long way to bring the fluff together in my eyes.  New and old, out of date and new-but-conflicting etc, it's helping bring the universe together as well as expanding it for us.  But it does create a few niggles along the way.

 

I say - ride the storm out, take the fluff on board old and new, see where officials take it, and make of it what you will accordingly.  Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean to say you can't enjoy it - just add your own spin on it that you do like :)

[Quixus]

for example codex canon says that blood angles are amongst the longest lived marines indicating that marines have a natural life span though prolonged, and that the blood angles' life span is even longer than normal. then you have a HH books stating that marines are in fact immortal and have no natural death. that is a clear contradiction.

Unless I missed something, the HH books only say that no marine has died of old age yet, which may be an indication for immortality agelessness, but Iacton Qruze does show signs of aging.

also astorath. they created him saying he travels all over the galaxy decapitating brothers who fall to the black rage and survive battle. well i'm sure that there are several battle brothers falling in to short of a time for him to hear about it, finish off the brother he's with, travel to the next place and finish off the next brother. not to mention he must be the most skilled warrior in the universe to be able to have a no lose streak against every blood angel that's fallen to the rage that he's ever faced, the statistics just don't add up...i've been out of the community for a while, and those are the two that stick out immediately after 3yrs out.

Yeah that is a logistical nightmare.

 

Not sure if that is old or new, but repainting the armor of a frothing madman (DC) does not sound like such a good idea. He might mistake the paintbrush for a weapon and the painter for a traitor. Even if the Black Rage sets in slowly and early enough so that the armor can be repainted before the marine dons it, that seems like an aweful lot of trouble if the marine is supposed to die anyway.

[Blindhamster]

The black is a sign of respect and mourning. Its covered in fear to tread and lost sons

[SnorriSnorrison]

Astorath and the Sanguinor don't exist to me, fluff-wise. Nice models, so-so rules and the most terrible background I've ever laid my eyes upon. If you compare the background of these two with the background of our established characters like Dante, Lemartes, Mephiston, Tycho, Moriar and Gabriel Seth, you'd have to chain your wrist to your chair to not facepalm yourself with your monitor while reading. Utterly ridiculous.

Epic story of a Space Hulk ripping open a portal to the warp, Blood Angels taking the fight to a Bloodthirster like true warriors, on the edge of defeat? Nope, a dude in shiny armour shows up out of nowhere, blesses a guy here and there, saves the day and gets the hell out of there. Man, my dog could write a better ending than that.

Same with Astorath. Who I loathe so much that I will stop myself from ranting any further, I've got to show up early at work tomorrow...

Other than that, and a few add-ons like "masters of the skies" and some units, our fluff has mainly remained the same. I think the Sanguinary Guard are quite fitting as the bodyguard of the Primarch and bearers of his legacy in the present time.

Blindhamster is spot on, it was all explained in Fear to Tread. Which was a really good read in my opinion. ;)

Snorri

[GrunTeufel]

 

 

Epic story of a Space Hulk ripping open a portal to the warp, Blood Angels taking the fight to a Bloodthirster like true warriors, on the edge of defeat? Nope, a dude in shiny armour shows up out of nowhere, blesses a guy here and there, saves the day and gets the hell out of there. Man, my dog could write a better ending than that.

 

Same with Astorath. Who I loathe so much that I will stop myself from ranting any further, I've got to show up early at work tomorrow...

 

 

I think the same way. I think sanguinor and astorath are rather stupid. I don't like the models either. Sanguinor is one of the laziest designs I have ever seen since 3rd edition (that come at me heretic pose, oh boy) and astorath the grim just looks over the top with his marble skin, black hair and tiara like hair band along with his muscle armor and crows wings. He looks like something marvel would do. 

 

Fluff is so so. We already had a deathcompany chaplain so astorath is a bit redundant anyway. They could have explored lemartes' background more. Sanguinors fluff is quite lazy as well. "Here have this guy that might be sanguinius reborn or some warp entity OR something else we don't know LOL XD". They could have improved Dante by giving him eternal warrior (like EVERY OTHER chapter master) and made him more usable.

 

I ranted a bit didn't I. Oh well.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

...ship's internet won't let me use the quote button...but any way.

 

1. DC marines don't have their armor painted 5minutes before a battle, they are identified as being afflicted by the rage during prayer on the eve of battle meaning about 12-24 hours before a battle is expected. 2. the armor is in the armory when it's painted.

 

i don't mind sanguinor's story too much if they give more detail and flesh it out a little more and make it more solid in the next BA update, but ya i agree he could have had a better model...and at least a pistol...even one of the wrist mounted ones...i hate the idea of a H2H only character in a game that has lasers, and tanks, and bio-chem-gun-things.

 

sanguinary guard...i love the models, but they seem like they're a bit superfolous with honor guard having already been around, and since the beginning i always assumed the role of SG was fulfilled by the HG, then they bring the 'super' honor guard...like i said love the models though.

[Quixus]

1. DC marines don't have their armor painted 5minutes before a battle, they are identified as being afflicted by the rage during prayer on the eve of battle meaning about 12-24 hours before a battle is expected. 2. the armor is in the armory when it's painted.

Still a lot of trouble for a marine that is supposed to die the next day. Now if the surviving DC were put in stasis or otherwise restrained to be unleashed in some other battle, I'd understand, but as it is it seems pointless.

[knife&fork]

The Imperium isn't exactly know for its focus on common sense and practicality....

 

Regarding the aging of space marines. 

 

The hormone therapy of today already allows old people to function at a higher level

http://i.imgur.com/Mn22sTr.jpg

Now imagine if something like this was done to a person in a far more advanced way from young age. In time however the replication errors of our cells will build up no matter what. Barring some kind of nano machines to keep the biological element in check you would eventually age and die.  

[micahwc]

On immortality of space marines, consider Abbadon the Despoiler. He was a company captain under Horus 10,000 years ago. Granted, he has warp powers looking over him, but still. Or Cypher, no known connection to daemons but has been around for 10,000 years (Warpstorms I know...). Dante is has been a space marine of renown for 1100 years, so he's a little older than that. How many years did it take him to become a company captain before he became chapter master? Fluff says he has lead the blood angels for 1000 years and that other chapter masters remember hearing stories of him when they were still scouts.

 

Fabius Bile, Typhus, and Ahriman are all 10,000+ years old. Lucius the eternal doesnt really count because his physical body dies repeatedly.

 

Also, I've played BA since 2nd. I think Astorath is nice but I would have preferred either fleshing out Lemartes or the chaplain from the 2nd edition death company box set (one of my favorite models). Sanguinary Guard are basically just honor guards with wargear, so I can accept them, but suddenly having them for the entire chapter history when there was no mention of them for 4 previous editions of the game is annoying. Same with Sanguinor. It's why I dont like him. He was never mentioned as having existed through multiple editions of the game. Also, Vanguard Veterans? Really. Aren't they basically Assault Marine Veterans? Could we just go ahead and call them what they are.

[knife&fork]

Obviously once you start to mix in outright magic anything goes. 

 

I honestly don't mind the sanguinor and sanguinary guard except how awful they play in the game. Astaroth however is just weird and totally out of place. 

[Quixus]

Also, Vanguard Veterans? Really. Aren't they basically Assault Marine Veterans? Could we just go ahead and call them what they are.

Also, Sternguard Veterans? Really. Aren't they basically Tactical Marine Veterans? Could we just go ahead and call them what they are.

[infyrana]

Knife&fork - did you really have to sear my eyes with that image?  :(

[Blindhamster]

for the love of the emperor... chaos space marines are not technically 10,000 years old!

 

sure there may be a few that are incredibly old, but the warp works in unusual ways, time passes differently.

 

we also know that the reason Garro looks older than Loken, despite Loken actually being older (apparently) is that Loken has spent more time travelling in the warp than Garro had.

 

Unless someone from GW (including BL/FW) comes out and flat out says that x is actually 10,000 years old and spent it all in real time, I don't buy it, I'll once again cite the salamander that is found fused to the command throne as proof that a marine cannot survive so long in any meaningful way (and the ship he was on got lost in the warp for a large period of time to boot - so he likely wasn't even 10k years old).

 

Even dreadnaughts such as bjorn are not technically that old, as they are kept in stasis for extremely large periods of time...

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

...ship's internet is being weird and i can't quote... so here goes.

 

1. DC marines are identified during prayer on the eve of battle, normally they have certain 1000 yard empty stare or something about their eyes. 2. the armor is in the armory when it gets painted 3. the rage isn't like a 2 position switch, it isn't just on off. even during battle some marines haven't fully fallen to the rage.

 

any way, if they decide to add a bit more flesh to the sanguinor's background and make it seem less lazy in a novel, or a WD story, or the next dex, or any where really, i think that will help a lot, not huge on the character in general though...in a universe with lasers, and tanks, and space ships, and bio-chem-gun-things, a guy armed only with a sword and a cup is out of place in my opinion...at least give him a bolt pistol...even one of those wrist mounted jobs would be fine by me...

[knife&fork]

Knife&fork - did you really have to sear my eyes with that image?

What? It's just a healthy 70-something man with the hormone levels of normal, drug free 30-something.

[Sanguine_Knight]

Yes... The Sanguinor and Astorath are a little out of place fluff wise. Although Astorath is a beast on the table. I like the SG except mine always get hosed in every game I play with them. I think they should definitely bring back Moriar, and there's this chaplain repeatedly quoted in the 5th ed codex by the name of Argastes. I think he would make an interesting character. I know I am probably alone in this but I am not a fan of Tycho. Isn't he supposed to be dead? How can I play with a character that is dead. As for Vangaurds and Sterngaurds. Yes they are veteran Assault and Tactical Marines but there are no other kind of veterans except for sergeants and terminators. I just think that BA Vangaurds ought to actually be an option for our army. Maybe they could be given some good rules and weapons load outs. As of now there is no reason for me to buy the kit ,even though the models are decent, unless I just want to have some nice sergeants for my regular ASM's and extra bits. As for the immortality thing, I think I read somewhere that a marine that has been seen as unfit for combat and relegated to performing duties for the chapter could live indefinitely. Combat, at some point and time, will instantly shorten the lifespan of most Marines, and they wouldn't have any other way. Great discussion guys.

[Leonaides]

Sanguine Knight - a marine, even a combat-ineffective one, is a valuable resource and can be truste with things that a non-marine couldnt. Maybe he lost his lwoer body and the injuries were wrong to give him bionic legs so he's now put in charge of  a recruiting staion or an Orbital defence post as the senior officer/overseer so taht the chapter have a man on station that they can trust totally. But he will die eventually, of old age. It'll just take a while.

[Plague Angel]

[. . .] I am not a fan of Tycho. Isn't he supposed to be dead? How can I play with a character that is dead.

 

Historical battles. Maybe you and your ork buddy want to recreate the battle where he fell, or so on. He's not the only dead character either. With Forge World having both the Heresy and the Badab War as campaigns, there's nothing saying any given game must happen in 999.M41.

[knife&fork]

Eldrad is dead as well, isn't he?