Acebaur Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 So, I haven't played much of 6th at all, I sort of got out of it due to other interests, but I'm back in and was looking at the Stalker and Hunter for some AA for my army. What are people's experiences with both? Is one better than the other or are they just different? Thanks -Ace Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 The simplest comparison for me is am I more afraid of FMCs and Necron flyers or Drakes and Vendetta? Cost is virtually identical so it's it comes down to preferred target and/or rule of cool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3618199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedes Nex Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 The Stalker is better simply because it gets more shots, so you can reliably strip hull points and get more benefit from things that modify each individual shot of a unit. It's also great for killing Wave Serpents since it's very hard to pen and explode those with single shot weapons. The extra shots also make it ideal for engaging all types of skimmers and even ground targets in comparison to the Hunter. The Hunter is better if you want to attempt to explode things in one go, or for accumulating shots on a flyer a few turns into the future. But since flyers can simply fly off the board and the sturdiest flyers you want to penetrate and cannot reliably kill with the Stalker will also be hard to explode with the Hunter, it's not really worth it IMO. For these targets, it's better to take something like a Stormraven or allied Vendetta for exploding. I use a Spartan Assault Tank and give it the Battle for Sarosh Legacy of Glory and that already makes it better than the Hunter against flyers, at least for a single turn, and it only cost me 30 points, as the rest of the points were going to be spent on the assault transport regardless of AA opportunities. Both tanks are really underrated but at the same time they're not the best AA either. I think only 2+ Stalkers is really going to work and there are always better options like stationary Contemptor Mortis or your own flyers. The big killer for the Stalker/Hunter is lack of Interceptor. it comes down to preferred target and/or rule of cool. The Hunter wins hands down. Each missile it shoots is piloted/guided by an interred chapter serf. It basically shoots mini-dreadnoughts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3618337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Agree that the Raven is awesome but it's also 3x the cost as well. Three Hunters would have a good chance of knocking a Heldrake out or busting it's gun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3618384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Also, I think you can assemble the kit with both turrets and swap them out. So why choose? Try them both. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3618388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I'm a fan of oneshot kill weapons, so I'm a Hunter man. It also does a decent job of killing Wave Serpents that have popped their shields, thanks to Armorbane and AP2. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3619034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I'm a fan of oneshot kill weapons, so I'm a Hunter man. It also does a decent job of killing Wave Serpents that have popped their shields, thanks to Armorbane and AP2. Part of me really considers a new army base of triple Hunters. That's an average of two armorbane hits per turn, which is fairly significant. add onto that the fact this would only set you back 210 points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3620687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedes Nex Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 "Only" 210 points, as well as three HS slots. A very significant investment, but maybe the returns might be worth it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3620823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 "Only" 210 points, as well as three HS slots. A very significant investment, but maybe the returns might be worth it? FOC slots are a concern to be sure, but the point cost is less than a Land Raider or most MSU Terminators or Centurions. Its also the same cost as a single Storm Raven. I ran the numbers and they compare very well against each other for killing flyers or FMC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3620839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Plus, you can get Land Raiders in as dedicated transports and a Storm Raven in using the dataslate, if you're worried about slots. Also, at 2k, double FOC, so no issue. Personally, my new tourney army spreads the AA love around; one Hunter, one Talon, and a quad gun. Covers my bases, I think, and I've got slots left over for my Vindi and TFC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3620938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedes Nex Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 The Stormraven dataslate comes with a hefty "tax" in the form of the Stormtalon escort, but since the goal of the discussion was identifying cheap, reliable AA, I'd say the dataslate is actually an even better option than taking the AA tanks. If one took 3 Stalkers or Hunters they still have FA slots open, and Stormtalons have long been a form of cheap and somewhat reliable AA, so you could always take 3 tanks AND 3 Stormtalons if you were so inclined. Also it might be worth noting that one of the top 10 players at Torrent of Fire Invitational did well with a list using 2 Stalkers, 10 Scouts, and a large Centurion Tigurius deathstar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3620997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 I was bored at work, so I did some number crunching for comparison. I compared the # of points spent per unsaved wound or hull point. The two targets for comparison were AV12 flyer and T6 3+ FMC. I compared Stalkers, Hunters, Skyhammer Talons and TLLC, TLMM Ravens. I did factor in Hunter's special rule I did NOT factor in any Inv saves, jink, or chance to explode on damage table. AV12 Stalker = 63.3 points per Raven = 96.5 points per Hunter = 98.2 points per Talon = 100 points per FMC Raven = 77.2 points per Talon = 87.4 points per Stalker = 95 points per Hunter = 135.1 points per Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3621710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted March 15, 2014 Author Share Posted March 15, 2014 I think while the Hunter looks the worst on that list, it's special rule plays a big factor in the game. Getting to continue to reroll missed shots can be a game changer and if nothing else can provide a psychological advantage. Sure your opponent can just fly it off the board, but then that's a victory in and of itself as they just took their flyer out of the battle for that turn. Otherwise the stalker looks like the best deal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3622144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 I think while the Hunter looks the worst on that list, it's special rule plays a big factor in the game. Getting to continue to reroll missed shots can be a game changer and if nothing else can provide a psychological advantage. Sure your opponent can just fly it off the board, but then that's a victory in and of itself as they just took their flyer out of the battle for that turn. Otherwise the stalker looks like the best deal. I ran the same comparisons for things like Flakk Missiles, Lascannon snap shots or Havoc Autocannons. All of those had efficiency ratings of 150-250+ which makes the other options much more competitive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3622147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepowerofwar Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 I strongly disagree that the stalker is viable against av 12. Out of all of my 6th ed games I have yet to lose a raven to s7 shooting before turn 4 and by that point it has done more than its points in damage. I have more fear of the hunter or even a tac squad guy with a missile launcher than a stalker. Its more of a reliability to break av 12 than a chances to roll 6s to cause any real damage. but against FMC the stalker I think would do good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3622462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 I think while the Hunter looks the worst on that list, it's special rule plays a big factor in the game. Getting to continue to reroll missed shots can be a game changer and if nothing else can provide a psychological advantage. Sure your opponent can just fly it off the board, but then that's a victory in and of itself as they just took their flyer out of the battle for that turn. Otherwise the stalker looks like the best deal. Regarding the Hunter, this. In my last game against Chaos -- with Heldrakes -- he flew one off the board rather than risk taking a S7 Armorbane AP2 shot in the rear after I missed the shot in the previous turn. Psych out! I still lost, but that's because he had two Drakes and three Blight Drones... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3622575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 The numbers favor the Stalker but I agree that the Hunter has an "X" factor to it between the AP2 and the rear armor shot potential that is hard to quantify. This is the limitation of mathhammer. It can give you the numbers, but its up to the player to turn that into something useful. If the Stalker will take 4 turns to kill a target on average and a Hunter takes 5 turns, that 1 turn difference may not matter because the target has already done it's damage. It may be more worthwhile to gamble on killing the target on turns 2 or 3. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3622747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azash Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 I am not a particular fan of either but I ran into a situation putting together a tournament list where it looks like the stalker may be my best anti air option. The list was short on heavies and tight on points so running 2x stalkers gave me the highest volume of semi durable fire I could get for 150 pts. When I run some test games I will post how they did. The special rule is still worthless but its still 8 TL str 7 ap 4 skyfire shots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3623439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoteForPedro Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I'm going to be difficult and say between the Hunter and Stalker the best option is the Stormtalon Gunship It's more points but you get some boosts for those points. The main weakness of interceptor isn't really any difference than for the Stalker/ Hunter, your opponent will be gunning for it on turn one and AV12 doesn't give me great confidence in it surviving. I also find Heavy Support slots are at a premium in my lists, Fast Attack is much less popular. If forced to choose I would go for the Stalker; both are at risk of having no worthwhile targets but the Stalker is slightly less useless in those situations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3625173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 It's more points but you get some boosts for those points. The main weakness of interceptor isn't really any difference than for the Stalker/ Hunter, your opponent will be gunning for it on turn one and AV12 doesn't give me great confidence in it surviving. . One could look at it that the opponent's Vendetta, Drake or Raven is now focused on a 75 point model instead of something more valuable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3625244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Personally, I would go with a Stalker. If I'd expected heavy air, I would make the leap straight to getting a Firestorm Redoubt rather than a few Hunters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3625290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedes Nex Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I'm going to be difficult and say between the Hunter and Stalker the best option is the Stormtalon Gunship It's more points but you get some boosts for those points. The main weakness of interceptor isn't really any difference than for the Stalker/ Hunter, your opponent will be gunning for it on turn one and AV12 doesn't give me great confidence in it surviving. I also find Heavy Support slots are at a premium in my lists, Fast Attack is much less popular. If forced to choose I would go for the Stalker; both are at risk of having no worthwhile targets but the Stalker is slightly less useless in those situations. I agree that the Stormtalon is superior to either, but while the Stalker/Hunter lacks Interceptor, the Stormtalon is equally vulnerable to enemy flyers 50% of the time. Flyer dominance depends on whose flyers arrive first. Usually you want your flyers to arrive after the opponent's, and simply passing the first game turn to him and not seizing isn't a guarantee his flyers will arrive first. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3625718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Good point. AA tanks may not have Interceptor, but they will be on the board at the right time. Looking at these numbers, a pair of AA tanks or one tank and a quad gun have a reasonable chance to down a single flyer each turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3626780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoteForPedro Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 It's comforting at least that none of the three are 'bad' choices, the book as a whole has nice internal balance and the choice between Stalker, Hunter and Stormtalon is emblematic of that! Flak Missiles are the exception. With the possible exception of Imperial Fist Devs they are always terrible Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3627556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedes Nex Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 You'll always get random people telling you to take flakk missiles against flyers though. It's a wargear that has deceptively decent stats on paper but is absolutely terrible on the table. Even regular MLs are cutting it real close with their huge point increase, before throwing on a 10 point upgrade per ML. Free S8 flakk might have kept MLs the default auto-take option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287932-stalker-or-hunter-which-is-better/#findComment-3628293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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