Probably basic assault questions

[Foolio_Displasius]

I play CSM; my usual 40K buddy plays Orks. Our last game left me questioning how well I understand certain aspects of the assault phase. Since my buddy and I pretty much just play each other, I would seek the wisdom of those more experienced.

First, my questions:

1. Can models only fight if they're in B2B contact (or 2 inches from someone who is) with enemies after the pile-in move at the beginning of their initiative step? (Corollary: If they're not, are they SOL?)
2. What's the best way to handle models fighting challenges, amid everything else that happens in the assault phase? (E.g., move them off to the side and treat them as a separate combat? Or if you leave them in-place, do they still count as being in base contact with the models they're physically in base contact with for purposes of determining who else in the combat is 2 inches away from other models in the combat? --If that makes no bloody sense, just say so)

Background on the situation:

I assaulted a Boyz squad with my Jugger-Axe-Lord and some tagalong Spawn. The squad had been funneled awkwardly through a terrain gap, so JuggerMan was at the front of the squad, and the closest Spawn was about 2 inches behind him. After the charge, he was my only dude in base contact with Boyz. He challenged the squad's Nob, who was at the opposite end of the Boyz squad. Per our typical practice, we moved the two models off to the side of the combat and had them duke it out. JuggerMan ate the Nob.

Then the Spawn piled-in their 3 inches, and things got weird. Contrary to how we'd been playing it in previous games, we suddenly realized both squads weren't supposed to pile-in; just the models at the appropriate initiative step. Well, that left the Spawn less than an inch outside of base contact with any of the Boyz. We tried to figure out whether they could still fight, but we weren't sure. In the end, my buddy let me have them fight, and they ate a couple ranks of Boyz.

Then it got weirder. The Boyz piled in their 3 inches, and they also weren't in base contact with my Spawn... there was a 2 or 3 inch gap between the squads. By this point we were totally confused, so we just had him roll to hit as if everyone was in contact. He wounded a Spawn, but lost the combat, biffed his LD test, and the Boyz were summarily cut down.

Neither of us felt unduly put out by the situation, but neither of us felt entirely comfortable that we understood the rules, either.

[KhorneFlakes]

1. Yes, they can only fight if in b2b contact or within 2" of a model that is, 2. Resolve challenges by taking them aside and treating them as separate combat. 

[hallodx]

A question about this tho, does two models in a challenge fight treated as B2B?

I don't know if I can claim hammer of wraith if my Khan's opponent is at middle of his unit, which means can never B2B even after charge.

[Foolio_Displasius]

OK then.  Follow-up question.  If you get to a point where the squads aren't in B2B contact, does the assault stop right there?

 

So in our game, the Spawn weren't in B2B with the Boyz during the I3 step... do we then proceed to the I2 step and let the Boyz try to move in?  Or is the assault just over at that point?

[netminder69]

It doesn't stop. You pile in. Pile In happens at the start of your initiative phase. If your spawn are not within assault range at the start of your I step, then you pile in. If you killed everything close and there was nothing at the end of your phase, then it passes to the next I (in this case, the Orks) and they pile in. Then, after results are determined and morale checks made, you consolidate. Then do it all over again if you're still in combat.

 

This is how I understand it.

[Fibonacci]

First off, if the Nob was more then 2" away from the boy your Lord is in base to base with, he could not accept the challange since he was not engaged.

 

If he was in range, you don't move them off to the side, you move the Nob so that he is in base contact with the Lord by swapping him out with the boy the Lord is in base to base contact with.

 

As for the do they count for the 2" rule, yes.  If your model is within 2" of your Lord then he is in engaged in the combat.  The challange is not a seperate combat but it does have the restriction that "only the challenger and challengee can strike blows against one another."

[SvenONE]

Ahhh yes, explaining CQC with an Ork player, a timeless endeavor.  Not a knock against Ork players mind you, given the nature of their unit size, close-combat with them is probably the most involved among all the codices.

 

KhorneFlakes answered your initial question best.  In fact you had the answer right all along! Move your 3" pile in, and if you are within 2" of a model engaged in base contact with an enemy model of the same combat you're ready to fight.

 

Fibonacci made a really important point though that I've seen a lot of players forget.  Especially Ork players.  Almost without fail I'll see an Ork player try to issue a challenge with their nob who's sitting at the back of the combat, which they can only do if BOTH characters are engaged in the combat (doesn't have to be B2B, just engaged).  I used to pull the models to the side and put them atop a platform or tower, but instead now my opponents just swap a model depending on who's closer, bringing them to the front lines.  It makes it way easier when it comes to situations like you described.  If the challenge was legal in the first place, let the nob and the lord duke it out at the front line, while the spawn piles in to the correct distance.

 

In your example of your combat, it sounds like either somewhere you forgot a pile-in move or either you or your opponent wasn't, or barely, in unit cohesion when the combat started, but then again depending on how many wounds you inflict against Orks that sometimes happens.  If the Orks, after their I2 pile in, aren't in base contact they forfeit their blows.  There's no rule that says this directly, but the models aren't satisfying the needs to be engaged in combat, thus are unengaged and you move to the end-of-combat pile in stage, 3" for both players meaning 6".

 

Should for some reason there not be any models in base contact you get a Consolidate move (BRBp28, top right of page).  This rarely happens to me, but happens MOSTLY when fighting Orks.

 

That's why tactically you want to fight Orks at a choke point to limit the swings they throw at you.

 

Edit:  It's important to note that even though models out of range can't fight, they can still have wounds allocated to them. (BRBp25, right side)  That's why fighting Orks with things like Furiosos are hilarious (for the BA player) since it basically becomes a lawnmower.

[alex567]

Regarding the rules for moving the challengee and the challanger.

 

It is a common misconception to remove both models from the challenge and for them to fight it out separately. Most likely due to fantasy.

 

Firstly you must attempt to move the challnger into base contact with the challengee.

 

If this isn't possible you then swap the challanger for a friendly model in base contact with the challengee.

 

If this isn't possible you must then attempt to swap the challengee for a friendly model in base contact with the challanger.

 

If this isn't possible the challanger to as close as possible to the challengee and assume they are on contact.

 

This does block models from getting into contact, meaning you do have to move around them to get into contact.

[Foolio_Displasius]

Thanks all!  This is fantastic guidance, and exactly what I was hoping to find.

 

I will send my buddy a link to this thread and we'll see how things go next time!