Army ideas and question on Marked CSM

[Wayniac]

First of all, I am trying to decide between two army concepts that I'm looking at doing as I get back into 40k and re-dedicate my soul to the Ruinous Powers.  I've never been a really competitive player, although I don't want to just get curbstomped every game, and I might end up participating in a tournament here and there for fun.

 

My first army idea is pretty straightforward, as I like the overall feel of a Chaos army - I want to use the Crimson Slaughter book and make a fairly fluffy Crimson Slaughter army, as they've grown on me with their tragic backstory.  The idea for this army is to have a mix of CSM and daemon engines, but stay away from marked troops because they don't really fit; something to capture the idea that these are recently turned renegades, but make no question about where their loyalties lie - I would likely take units that have easy analogies to loyalist Marines (e.g. Havocs, Raptors, Predators) and supplement them with daemon engines to represent the newfound power.

 

My second choice is to play a Nurgle themed army representing The Grey Death, the former Iron Drakes chapter that were corrupted in the Abyssal Crusade and surrendered to Nurgle.  The main thing with this is that I've never been a huge fan of Nurgle, although they are more competitive.  This is also where I have a question - is it viable at all to have a marked Chaos Space Marine squad that isn't the appropriate cult troop?  For example, would it be viable to take regular CSM with the Mark of Nurgle versus Plague Marines?  For this theme I'm thinking that most of the army would be MoN marines, but not Plague Marines (who would be my elites and represent the most devoted followers, basically ), and again include daemon engines to make no qualms about the fact they sold their souls to Chaos long ago.

 

Honestly I'm leaning towards the first because the Slaughter has really grown on me, and I've always like the non-gimmicky Chaos armies, but the Nurgle armies are currently the most competitive outside of typical Heldrake spam.

 

Any ideas or suggestions on this? 

[Sception]

Viable?  I guess?   For casual play, maybe.  As a general rule I don't find the marks to be 'worth it' on basic CSMs compared to the better cults (ie, I'd take NM or PM over slaaneshi or nurgle marked CSMs).  Frankly, I don't find the marks to be 'worth it' compared to unmarked versions of the same units, with the exception of MoN on multi-wound models.  Unmarked CSM units however, also tend to be less effective or functional than the better cults (again, PM, certain NM configurations) or non-CSM units (cultists, spawn).

 

But you're not exactly shooting yourself in the foot with MoN on CSMs.  It does more or less what you'd expect, cutting into your offense per point and defense per point vs. high strength weapons for extra defense per point against lower strength weapons.  Sadly, it's on a unit whose offense and defense per point already aren't the most inspiring, and since you still want 10 man squads for dual specials you're going to be cutting into your better support units to afford the upgrade.  At that rate, you might consider running 5-6 man squads w/ a combi-special on the champ to make up for the lost special in the unit?

 

 

As for crimson slaughter, a lot of it comes down to whether they change the possessed enough to make taking a unit or two of them as troops an interesting proposition and not just a recipe for frustration.  I'm not exactly optimistic.  Still, some cultists, some marines, eschewing vets and marks, is not a terrible place to start.  Bikes are decent and have marine analogs so they fit.  Havocs or predators aren't as good as nurgle oblits, but aren't super bad, either.  Well, if your regular opponents are sporting cover-ignoring, AP3 or better long range large blast weapons (read: Taudar), then havocs are kinda baddish.  Raptors aren't really good, but they aren't terrible.  Mostly they're less good bikes, but that doesn't make them bad to the point of frustration necessarily, and their look is certainly a good fit for the slaughter, particularly if you mix a few warp talon bits into the mix (I wouldn't recommend actually running warp talons, though).

 

As for the daemon engines in either list - dakkafiends are alright.  Not good, they're too fragile for their points cost to be good, but alright.  While you might consider the plasma head on a dakkafiend, the full plasma setup isn't advisable, imo - the range is too limiting, especially on a relatively fragile body, and the overheat risk too great.  Maulerfiends are pretty decent, if run in pairs in support of bikes or especially spawn.  Spawn seem like a good thematic fit for the slaughter as well.  Drakes are, of course, awesome.  Defilers aren't so hot, but are more a legion thing, anyway, fluff-wise, so whatever.

[Forté]

I'd say... Think what you want to see on the table and how it could work in conjunction with other units. And try to avoid looking at other Codex material and comparing.

 

I like what you're trying to do too.

 

Here's two other things to try.

Avoid overly negative threads as this can put a downer on your hobby.

Look at the work in progress forum. There more Chaos stuff happening there than Imperial from what I've seen.

[minigun762]

Marks can be effective on CSMs (well besides MoTz).

 

In essence they create less powerful but cheaper and more flexible Cult troops. The biggest bonus I think is no requirement to take a marked lord as your HQ. This gives you more options which is a plus.

[Trevak Dal]

In spite of a lot of complaints-CSMs are Space Marines.  If you like the Crimson Slaughter-GeeDub's got you back man-they have a supplement for CSMs.

 

If they had one for Red Corsairs I'd use it like I use the Enclave one for my Tau.

 

Regarding the Mark of tzeentch on CSMs, I used it briefly on my Journey to Red Corsairs when I flirted with having augmented human allies for my Tau (Spartans-like from Halo).

 

The 6+ save didn't really help-but I loved having my Raptor Green space marines with Gold eye lenses...right up until someone asked if they were Nurgle :(

 

Similar story with my Third Street Saints inspired Warband and people thinking they were Emperor's Children :(

[Trevak Dal]

I don't think you said you'd be using a daemon prince-but Raptors make a good 'escort' for a winged daemon prince as they can keep up and can assault what he assaults (usually).  The Main reason for this is so that you Daemon Prince won't get Challenge Locked and can go to work on the squad.

[Wayniac]

I don't think you said you'd be using a daemon prince-but Raptors make a good 'escort' for a winged daemon prince as they can keep up and can assault what he assaults (usually).  The Main reason for this is so that you Daemon Prince won't get Challenge Locked and can go to work on the squad.

 

A DP is an interesting thought (and the model looks great), not sure if I'd use him for the Crimson Slaughter (doesn't really seem to fit?) but I'd almost certainly use him for the Grey Death concept (4,000 years is long enough to have a particular devout ex-Iron Drake get elevated; I think the Abyssal Crusade was like in M37).  I might have to wait and see what the Crimson Slaughter supplement is like, because that's leaning to be my first choice as I've really enjoyed the novellas featuring them, but part of me likes the almost clean slate for the other idea and the overall opportunities, even if I didn't do much in the way of conversions.

 

Also on that note would there be any WYSIWYG issues with using the normal CSM models as Plague Marines (with a suitably rotted/decaying coloration of course)?  I mean I guess it could be confusing if you had both MoN CSM and Plague Marines in the same army with the same models for each.

[Scribe]

I still like MoK CSM with Vets.

[Wayniac]

One other idea, how are Khornate units?  Berzerkers and the like.  I recalled that one of the chapters lost in the Abyssal Crusade, the Tempest Legion, were renamed to "The Revelation of Gore" which has got to be one of the coolest sounding names ever and sounds definitely Khornate, only I'm thinking instead of World Eaters style to go for a mix of shooty and CC (after all "gore" can occur via chopping somebody up or blowing them into bloody chunks).  That could be an idea as well and be something different (and could still allow for such things as Heldrakes)

[Akylas]

Regarding the Mark of tzeentch on CSMs, I used it briefly on my Journey to Red Corsairs when I flirted with having augmented human allies for my Tau (Spartans-like from Halo).

The 6+ save didn't really help-but I loved having my Raptor Green space marines with Gold eye lenses...right up until someone asked if they were Nurgle

Bah, non corroded/diseased green marines should not be assumed to be Nurgle aligned. My Raven Guard 30k guys have yellow eye lenses, as well as my Black Legion Raptors. I bet your guys looked awesome.

[Scribe]

Berzerkers are poor, they just are. They should have been 2A base with Chain Axes default, and still 19 points. The real killer is lack of delivery, which kicks all of our assault leaning units in the unmentionables.

 

As it is, I still like my CSM with MoK, in a Rhino. 10, 2 Specials (double Flamer if CC focus) with Veterans is a nice little unit.

[the jeske]

I still like MoK CSM with Vets.

Probably because MoK csm are better then zerkers. NM can do stuff csm can't better. PMs outclass csm with mon . tzeench csm and 1ksons are almost on the same level viability [with 1ksons having the better models , fluff and the moral high ground of being a faction/unit most hated in GW history].

[Minsc]

CSM should be unmarked in my opinion. If you give them marks, the cult-unit is always a better option (unless they aren't unlocked to troops.)

10 Berzerkers + champ costs as much as 10 CSM + champ, 2x meltaguns, MoK, IoW.
While the CSM do have two specialweapons, they loose +1 WS, Fearless, and the icon can get killed.
Berzerkers are equal to MoK- CSM in my opinion. They are worse at combat, but the flexibilty of being able to have specialweapons is nice.
Personally though, if I went the special-weapon route, I wouldn't bother giving them MoK and IoW in the fist place, and spend those points elsewhere.

Plague Marines beat CSM with MoN hands down, if nothing else because you can take 2 specialweapons in 5man squads with PM's, and you need 10 guys for CSM. But let's compare anyway:
10x CSM /w bp+ccw+bolter, MoN and 2 plasmaguns = 220 pts
10x PM /w 2 Plasmaguns - 270 pts.
Now 50 points may seem alot, but consider that for 5 points per model, you get; A poison 4+ ccw, fearless, 5+ FnP and defensive grenades. Easily worth it.

CSM with MoS can contend with Noise Marines since they can have 2 specialweapons and the noise marines can 'only' have sonic weapons, but on a straight comparison (CSM with MoS, ccw+bp+bolter vs a Noise Marine with ccw+bp+bolter) you end up paying 1 point per model for fearless.

Blastmasters are actually one of the few powerful things in our Codex, and I personally like Doom Sirens as well. So Noise Marines win.

CSM with MoTz are just sheit full stop. Don't even bother.
Either go unmarked or go the full way and use Thousand Sons.

[Scribe]

Run the numbers on 10 CSM, MoK, and 2 Flamers, vs Berzerkers, I think (if I remember right) the CSM edge out the Berzerkers, and retain the flexibility of Bolters.

[minionboy]

I rarely mark standard CSM units, but when I do, it's MoS marked Enhanced Marines, S5 I5, Fearless and FNP is a pretty awesome unit.

 

As Minsc summarized above, marks vs cults just aren't worth the cost (all the marks should be a point less than they currently are).  The best way to run units of CSM is in units of 10 for 2 specials, any other way and you're paying too many points.

[Gratan]

I have been building a Crimson Slaughter army since the Dark Vengeance sets came out. Right now I am waiting to see what the CS Codex gives us before I rework my army list.

 

I am not a competitive player, so my lists are always fluffy and casual. I play with the models and units I like. Once I see how the Crimson Slaughter turn out, I'll be changing some things to fit.

 

Right now, my CSM squads are unmarked. Only my Chosen squad with Power Axes is marked for Khorne.

[Minsc]

Run the numbers on 10 CSM, MoK, and 2 Flamers, vs Berzerkers, I think (if I remember right) the CSM edge out the Berzerkers, and retain the flexibility of Bolters.

 

If you equip the CSM with both bolters and ccw in addition to flamers, they end up being 10 pts more expensive than the berzerkers. 

 

They do get the flexibility of bolters and flamers, but they are worse at combat (-1 WS, not fearless, snipe-able Icon), the very thing you pay them to do.

 

I'd probably save 60 points on that unit, by not giving them close combat weapons, MoK and IoW.

[Scribe]

No no. I pay them to be well rounded.

 

MoK lets them put out a bit more wounds, lets them take a charge better (see issues of no assault vehicles) and both assault and defense performance is boosted by the flamer.

 

10 CSM

MoK

Flamer x 2

VotLW

 

180, right?

 

I dont know, its not amazing, but its what we have. :p

[Disciple of Fulgrim]

In 6th I switched from CSM troops to NM, in order to give BM MSU's a try.  I've been delighted with the results, but not just because of the BM's (which are indeed great) - gaining Fearless troops has been huge too, and well worth the Lord tax IMO.  I have to imagine the same would apply to MoN CSM vs. PM, though IIRC the points difference for this upgrade is not the same. 

[Kilofix]

More around the OT.

 

In fluff, and aesthetics-wise there are lots of examples of Warbands that have Marked troops that aren't cult troops.

 

There was MoK Sanctified in Siege of Vraks (IA:5,6,7) that were Khornate worshipping Word Bearers sub-faction that weren't Berserkers.

 

There was MoN The Tainted in Siege of Vraks (IA:5,6,7) that were a sub-faction of Death Guard but not all Plague Marines.

 

If you read the Black Legion supplement, it is has pictures of troops that are MoK, MoN, MoT, MoS that all have some variant of the Black Legion color scheme but are not necessarily all Beserkers, Plague Marines, Rubric Marines or Noise Marines. I'm assuming the same will be so for Crimson Slaughter.

 

 

Regarding effectiveness, my regular CSM with only MoK and substitute Bolter for CC have been killing lots of units 2x or 3x their size. Drop in Khârn and its Maim! Kill! Burn! But other than that, I hardly mark regular CSM. I do however usually mark Bikers, Raptors, Terminators, with MoS + IoE and Oblits, Spawn with MoN.

[Minsc]

No no. I pay them to be well rounded.

MoK lets them put out a bit more wounds, lets them take a charge better (see issues of no assault vehicles) and both assault and defense performance is boosted by the flamer.

10 CSM

MoK

Flamer x 2

VotLW

180, right?

I dont know, its not amazing, but its what we have.

Well yes, but are these with Bolters or CCWs?

If you want ccw, pistols and bolters, you might as well get the ccw's instead of MoK since it's +1A all the time instead of only when charging/getting charged.

[Sception]

Yes, never buy MoK before getting extra close combat weapons.

[Wayniac]

Hmm interesting to know, thanks everyone for the replies.  So far it's likely I'm just going to do Crimson Slaughter, as like I said they really appeal to me, while the Nurgle one would be more like "Well, I'll win more this way" and not really be something I'd like.  The Khorne one doesn't seem like it'd really work, so I'll steer clear of that only because I'd get frustrated and quit if I always lost due to no fault of my own.

[Scribe]

Ah you guys are right, so thats actually 198 points, if you bother with MoK. :/

[minionboy]

Malisteen speaks the truth... 2 points for +1 attack all the time vs 2 points for +1 attack in the first round.

 

Sadly, either the marks should all be a point less or the CCW.  I'm actually fine with 13 point bolter marines though, if used for just for a unit of 10 scoring 3+ bodies, they're fantastic.