Using a Primarch

[captain Angel]

Do you need an hq in addition, or are they both and HQ and a lord of war?

[Kais Klip]

Primarchs are a Lord of War, a separate slot in your army detachment. So far none have a special rule allowing them to count as the compulsory HQ obligation. You still need an HQ and two Troops.

[Russ Brother 92]

On this topic - what would folks recommend as the smallest force to use a primarch (allowing for being a LoW and no more than 25%) ??

[grand_master85]

Really, for what you need to team them up with (usually bodyguard, in a kitted up Spartan) you'd be looking more towards the 2.5 - 3k points level. I've seen them used in 2k, but for what you have tot take out at that level to fit them in, I'm not sure if you're better off saving the points. Angrons great at 380 pts (ish), but without the right support he'll go down to a Volkite tactical support squad rather easily after a couple of turns

[Balthamal]

I believe the minimum points value for a Lord of War on the Legion force org is 2k but don't quote me on that since I haven't got Betrayal to hand. Realistically 2.5k is what you should be looking at just at the base level given the points cost on a lot of them before you're moving onto a transport (spartans) and a squad to run with them

[Russ Brother 92]

I'm pretty sure that the only primarch useable under 2k is pre-ascension Lorgar, I have Ferrus who's nearer 500pts so I'd need 2k minimum, I will indeed look to using a Spartan (aiming for 3 in a 3k force) plus a kitted out CS for him with Primus Medicae...

 

But as you say that little 7 man + tank is best part of 1k alone if not more.

 

Hmmm I will have to test this theory :)

[Moonstalker]

I'm pretty sure that the only primarch useable under 2k is pre-ascension Lorgar, I have Ferrus who's nearer 500pts so I'd need 2k minimum, I will indeed look to using a Spartan (aiming for 3 in a 3k force) plus a kitted out CS for him with Primus Medicae...

But as you say that little 7 man + tank is best part of 1k alone if not more.

Hmmm I will have to test this theory

You cannot use any of them under 2k because they would count as your Lord of War choice. That said, even Horus isn't more than 500, so they are technically usable at 2k.

I'm also not convinced that a Spartan is necessary. A Land Raider and a small bodyguard could work - they don't have to be terminators, considering the sheer combat power of some of the Primarchs. Ablative wounds in power armor could work as well. Mortarian is a bit of an exception. Given his durability and mobility (through Shadow of the Reaper) he could conceivably be fielded alone, without bodyguard or transport.

But as a general rule of thumb? Probably not below 2.5k.

[Kais Klip]

Aye under 3,000 points a primarch and his retinue squad (one that isn’t simply 20 extra wounds for the primarch) will pretty much become the army, with the rest of the force as support. If you are a massive primarch fan boy that is great, but I find it to be more entertaining when the primarch and his squad is just one of the many highlights of the forces at hand. I’m not talking about other LoWs either, but a column of 120 tactical grunts or a swarm of jet bikes is just as impressive as a Fell blade with predator backup or Angron leading a wedge of berserkers in my experience.  If you like crunch almost as much as fluff, you will find that primarch squad lacking in performance for the proportion of your army that it takes up. 

[Moonstalker]

From a crunch perspective, I am not sure Primarchs are terribly viable at any points level.  At 2k, they could be absolutely crippling to your army's flexibility and depth.  At 3k points, do you want Horus and a Land Raider?  Or do you want a warhound with dual turbolasers?  They're not only a large points commitment, but they are also your Lord of War.  They may be heavy in rules and close combat power, but there are a lot of other Lords of War that bring a lot more value - or easily-applied firepower - that they have to compete with.  You can't just look at them as a Praetor++

[depthcharge12]

From my personal views, I think that primarchs and lords of war should be at least above 2500 or 3000+, not for balance reasons, but then you have so little in your army and are really limiting yourself.

 

Or else it feels like codex: primarch with a nominal detachment to fill up your 2 troop slot minimums. Plus it's waaaay more satisfying having your primarch crash into a squad of 20 marines and make them run screaming like Saul Tarvit- I mean little girls :D

[Russ Brother 92]

I've Ferrus from a fluff perspective as I'm building the 1st Clan Company for my IHs - just looking at how viable tactically speaking it is haha all for fluff :D I play vs 40k and run a 2k army of 24 models so not overly tactical.

[Moonstalker]

A little thought experiment:

 

Centurion

-Master of Signal

85

 

Contemptor-Mortis

-Twin TLLC

185

 

Apothecarion

-3 Apothecaries

135

 

Legion Tactical Marine Squad

-19 members, Sergeant with AA, Scythe, Bolter, Meltabomb

270

 

Legion Tactical Marine Squad

-19 members, Sergeant with AA, Scythe, Bolter, Meltabomb

270

 

Legion Heavy Support Squad

-8 Members, 8 Missile Launchers

235

 

Sicaran Battle Tank

-Lascannon Sponsons

175

 

Sicaran Battle Tank

-Lascannon Sponsons

175

 

Aegis Defense Line

50

 

Mortarion the Reaper

-The Reaping Rite of War

425

 

MoS goes with the Heavy Support Squad (which is scoring) behind the ADL.  The Sicarans and Contemptor can be deployed back there, too, if necessary.  Put a home objective under the HSS and send the two tactical squads forward to do the capturing of others.  Mortarion can join one of the tactical squads on turn one/two for ablative wounds/protection from alpha striking.  Otherwise, you can think of him as a 425 point hammer unit.  With his wounds, save, IWND, etc, you can count on him to stick around pretty well.  He can make a 10 inch movement in the shooting phase (that does not count as running, is not prevented by the RoW, and allows him to charge afterwards).  So he has 16 inches of built-in mobility, after which he can deliver a charge.  If he gets mobbed in combat, he has a sweep attack that will prevent him from being tarpitted.  With the Lantern, he can function as a piece of additional anti-tank if necessary.  He gives all of his infantry buddies Stubborn, so you don't have to buy Vexillas for them.  With 6 lascannons, 8 missile launchers, 12 rending autocannon shots, and 38 bolter holders, I don't think this list sacrifices anything in versatility or firepower to bring Mortarion.

 

You could plug Mortarion into a different list, but this is what I mean by him being viable at 2k while other primarchs aren't.  He doesn't need a transport and a dedicated bodyguard.

[depthcharge12]

I'd agree with you kitwulfen, but like you said this is only for death gaurd. It's a really great army list, but I think people are less concerned with tournament capability (which it must be admitted, that this is a strong contender for that) and more on what seems "right". Kais Klip makes a good point that I as a player agree with as well that I was trying to illustrate: "I want to play with my LEGION and not with the primarch. The primarch is one of the many toys I can bring, but I don't want to feel like the army is supporting the primarch, I want the primarch to support the army."

 

 

But that's my personal style, and I'm sure others feel this way especially in 30k/"Grown-ups warhammer" :P

 

 

There's nothing much that can stop Mortarion from doing that crazy move and I'm sure all that wonderful firepower will do fantastic. My basic reaction to counter this list would just to challenge Mortarion when he does that charge to just tarpit him while my other squads hop in to both negate all your shooting at them :D and to kill that tough sob (I have a command squad and 10 termies in my 2000 list for this reason)

[Moonstalker]

Oh, I don't doubt there's ways to beat it.  That's what's wonderful about 30k.  For as much as I think some choices are stinkers and some choices are great, I have yet to see any really unbeatable/outrageous combos like screamerstar or whatever insanity is going on in the 40k meta.  I just wanted to illustrate the point that with that specific primarch you could have a viable 2k list with some working synergy, not that it was a particular powerhouse.  The other primarchs really need more points to make it work, or you end up playing Primarch With His 19 Closest Friends And Their Camper Vans.

[depthcharge12]

Oh, I don't doubt there's ways to beat it.  That's what's wonderful about 30k.  For as much as I think some choices are stinkers and some choices are great, I have yet to see any really unbeatable/outrageous combos like screamerstar or whatever insanity is going on in the 40k meta.  I just wanted to illustrate the point that with that specific primarch you could have a viable 2k list with some working synergy, not that it was a particular powerhouse.  The other primarchs really need more points to make it work, or you end up playing Primarch With His 19 Closest Friends And Their Camper Vans.

 

And they live down by the river? :D

 

 

Yes and it was good of you to point out this list, pretty much all of the other primarchs so far need some form of ablative wounds or transport in one way or another. Another guy who does battle reports uses Horus and justaraien in 2 land raiders and 1 spartan I think at 2000 points. It is very limited and tiny in model count put it packs a punch.

 

 

I like this list a lot and I would enjoy playing someone like you of a similar mind for the sheer tactical joy of beating a tough list. I run a list combined out of strong units and ones I like that would fit fluff, however it is neither OP nor fluff I plan on getting beat all the time list.

 

I shall post my list (though it doesn't have DA legion stuff yet) on the appropriate list section with due haste and would like you to review it.

 

 

But on with the primarch discussion!!!

[Sanct]

Oh, I don't doubt there's ways to beat it.  That's what's wonderful about 30k.  For as much as I think some choices are stinkers and some choices are great, I have yet to see any really unbeatable/outrageous combos like screamerstar or whatever insanity is going on in the 40k meta.  I just wanted to illustrate the point that with that specific primarch you could have a viable 2k list with some working synergy, not that it was a particular powerhouse.  The other primarchs really need more points to make it work, or you end up playing Primarch With His 19 Closest Friends And Their Camper Vans.

 

Does that include the 2 jump pack plasma moritat deepstriking next to nuncio-vox?  Mortitats are very painful if you can't intercept them

 

 

 

That said why would Curze not be a good option?  He gives you guaranteed night fighting and is a nimble murderer.  Not as brutally tough as Mortarion but is a much bigger threat in the 30k enviro

[Moonstalker]

Curze might work, but I don't think as well as Mortarion.  They're fairly similar in a lot of respects, but Mortarion is still more mobile and tougher, which count for a lot when operating solo.  Their ranged weapons both serve very different purposes, but I think the Lantern is much more reliable at doing what it does than the Widowmakers.  They will only ignore armor and invuls on a 6, so only one hit every two turns or so will actually be AP.  The Lantern does that with every shot and is high enough power to double tough and threaten vehicles.  Next is melee weapons.  Mortarion's scythe inflicts ID with every hit.  Mercy and Forgiveness?  Only on 6's.  When it comes to potentially getting mobbed with challengers and having to fight off a Praetor and his bodyguard, it's going to be important that you can deal with them swiftly.  Same with plain old just getting mobbed.  Curze might get +1 attack from his two lightning claws, but Mortarion gets his sweep attack.  Worth pointing out that Mortarion's initiative is pretty mediocre (and made worse by an uwieldy weapon), and Curze could potentially survive a challenge gauntlet unscratched just by going first and rolling well.

 

Last is their Sire of the ____ special rules.  Personally, I think stubborn for the entire detachment is a huge advantage.  The poisoned frag weapons, not so much (it would be different if we fought xenos more often), but stubborn is expensive in the HH and very much worth having.  Night fighting on turn 1 when you wish it... I'm just not terribly impressed by.  I've never felt terribly threatened by Night Fight turn 1.  Of course, I have also never fought a Night Lords player, so maybe I have not been taught a healthy respect for the night.  The fear test bonus is also of middling usefulness.  Some legions (or rites of war) grant immunity to fear, everyone gets things like vexillas, some units are fearless, some units get stubborn, etc.  King of Terrors isn't terribly useful if he is running solo.  With WS8, it doesn't matter if the people he is fighting are WS1 or WS5, they're hitting him on 5's either way, and he's hitting them on 3's.  So who cares if they fail a fear test?  It would make a bigger difference if he had a bodyguard that was getting into the combat with him, who had a WS equal to that of the unit they were fighting, but in this particular instance we're talking about the possibility of fielding him without designing your army around him.  So a bodyguard cannot be assumed for this, but it also would not be terribly hard to arrange.  Finding a handful of crazy bastards with jump packs in a Night Lords army isn't exactly difficult, after all.

[Sanct]

Unless I doing it wrong Vexilla and Stubborn don't affect Fear tests. I mean we always took it that leadership tests aren't morale tests but morale tests are leadership tests. Small difference but meh.

 

The way Kit describes it Curze comes across as a better unit buffer compared to a Mortarion solo soft taunt 

[Moonstalker]

Unless I doing it wrong Vexilla and Stubborn don't affect Fear tests. I mean we always took it that leadership tests aren't morale tests but morale tests are leadership tests. Small difference but meh.

 

The way Kit describes it Curze comes across as a better unit buffer compared to a Mortarion solo soft taunt 

 

Turns out I've been using Stubborn wrong - i thought it was a reroll, like you would get from a Vexilla.  Which is either just part of the mishmash of the last three editions worth of rules floating around in my head, or me being flat out wrong and it never was that way.  I had also thought Fear was a Morale test and not a Leadership check (aware of the difference, just thought Fear was the former and not the latter).

 

That does change a bit of the consideration for their Sire of the ____ special rules.  I'm not sure that it makes Fear all that much better, but it does make Mortarion worse in my eyes.  There's still several ways of counteracting Fear, and even when your opponent fails a fear test it's an advantage for you - but not a huge deal.  Unlike to-wound, where high enough T/low enough S actually makes it impossible to wound, things never go beyond a 3+ or a 5+ for to-hits in melee.  On Mortarian's side, stubborn is still good, just not as good as I thought.  In the example list I posted, I would probably try to squeeze Vexillas into the tac squads just for the extra insurance.  I wouldn't be too terribly upset if I couldn't, though.

 

I don't think it changes things where their combat abilities are concerned.  Mortarian has the edge, IMO, in mobility, ranged firepower, toughness, and melee (sweep attack and ID for all attacks is the decider there, for me).  The more I think about it, I think they each have their niche.  Mortarion moves across the field easily by himself and can handle himself, but Curze's jump infantry type means he is superior if you want to bring a bodyguard without having to shell out for a Spartan.

 

Horus' teleportation matrix lets him get up the field quickly but no real maneuverability afterwards.  Orbital bombardment could be a critical game changer, something that knocks out an enemy vehicle in one hit, and his melee beatstickitude is pretty intense.  His Sire rule is all about buffing himself than providing any benefit to the army - that is reserved for the God of Battle rule for some reason.  His rules all seem geared towards a massive terminator teleport attack right into the heart of the enemy.  If you don't do that, then you definitely need a transport for him, and probably a bodyguard.  That and his point cost necessitate building your army around him, and preferably at a high point level.

 

Ferrus has no real mobility, but he provides some pretty massive army-wide buffs through Sire and Master of Mechanisms.  If you are taking him instead of Apothecaries, his effective cost is lower (if you take him instead of two apothecaries, you've got 6+ FNP for the entire army instead of 5+ FNP for two squads, and thus 'save' 90 points).  He has a high strength melee weapon which can ID uppity Praetors that challenge him, but his low attacks make him no more dangerous than two TH/SS terminators in a melee.  I suppose he does get an extra attack from his servo arm.  I think he's like Horus, someone who will shine in a higher point army, but this time because there will be more vehicles and squads there to get IWND and FNP, as opposed to Horus who needs those other models to hold down the fort while he gets to the front line to win glory.

 

Lorgar is cheap, but he's more like a super-chaplain or Praetor than a truly godly primarch.  He's strong, make no mistake, but most of his special rules are things that consuls or other characters get, just stronger.  Crusader to his squad, Ld10 to the army, immunity to Fear, +1 to assault results, etc.  Gets what amounts to a Thunder Hammer that strikes at I6, and an Archaeotech pistol.  His psychic power options are strong and could be quite devastating, but also push his cost up considerably.  Using Gate of Infinity he could preclude the need for any transport.  He is best with a bodyguard sharing his buffs, though.  I could see him being used at 2-2.5k without having to build a list around him.

 

Fulgrim's best aspect is probably that he is cheap.  His army buffs aren't spectacular.  His rules really just make him a monster in a challenge, but otherwise he could get tarpitted by a sufficiently resolute tactical squad.  He's more like a Primarch you take to counter a Primarch, than one you take for any benefit he provides your army.  He'll kill a Praetor just through sheer number of attacks from Sublime Swordsman, rather than through getting one ID attack through, and he won't miss ID when fighting a Primarch (since they have EW anyway).  Lack of mobility, poor invul vs ranged attacks, lack of useful ranged attack, lack of an AoE attack, lack of army buffs... he's really only any good if he has a transport, a bodyguard, and an opponent to challenge.

 

Vulcan is like Mortarion without the mobility.  Very tough (T7 and rerolls failed IWND), powerful ID-ing melee attack with an AoE form to counter mobbing/tarpitting, a medium-ranged high str/low AP ranged weapon that is perhaps better than the Lantern.  Sire of the Salamanders is of questionable utility.  An LD buff like Lorgar, which is good, but Adamantium Will for the army... is either entirely useless or potentially critical.  There just aren't a lot of psykers in 30k.  Draken Scale is stupid-good.  Think about the things you would kill a Primarch at range with: volkite, melta, plasma.  These things now wound on 6's.  Despite his lack of built-in mobility, that alone could turn him into an incredible tank for your army.  Vulcan is probably the most straightforward Primarch, a literal hammer unit.  I'm not sure how great it would be, but you could potentially walk him up the table at the front of a squad of terminators.  You can LoS! some wounds onto the squad, but being the front model in the squad he's going to laugh off a lot of the things you might kill terminators with.  Massed bolter fire, plasma, volkite, and melta all wound him on 6's, and he'll get a 2+ or 3++ save against them.  The more your enemy shoots at him, the better, because that is all things that aren't being fired at the rest of your army, and he can soak them up quite effectively.  The idea probably needs more work put into it, but just not needing to invest 350 points into a Spartan to get him up the field safely, but instead spending those points on him to get your own terminators up the field safely... I think it could be very good at 2k-2.5k.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

In my opinion the only primarchs you can use efficiently under 2.5K points are Horus, Curze, Chaos Lord Lorgar and Mortarion.

 

Horus because he has no-scattering Deepstrike so he has no trouble getting across the field and he picks which turn he comes in so you don't have to hope for a good reserve roll and once he's in combat he should kill his points worth over the course of a 6 turn game.

 

Curze because he can easily infiltrate with a terror squad and also has Hit and Run in case he gets bogged down by a Contrmptor Dreadnought and he can pretty easily rush a big marine squad, kill 4 or 5 and sweep them.

 

Mortarion because of his 10' run and still be able to charge which means he can move faster than beasts and can tank the fire thrown at him

 

And Chaos Lord Lorgar because you can take Gate of Infinity and Deepstrike on turn 1.

 

The others you really have to have a transport for get their full value.