ZONKEY Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Hi, I have always wondered how a few deathwing members liberating there home world resulted in the complete change in the deathwings paint scheme and have the deathwing always been known as the deathwing or is that the lions idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 As far as we know, Deathwing was one of DA Legion original 6 "wings". We don't know if it was from the order or a Lion creation. As for the colour of Deathwing, the story that led to it's change it is now classified as an alegory, so the change could have a deeper meaning then the story presents. But if the story is true than an event such as the story tells could be a catalyst for a change of the heraldry of Deathwing, it is not uncommon to see some kind of markings to be used after big heroic events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I've also always wondered how - DA HQ decided not to destroy a world contaminated by nids - DA HQ decided not to eliminate the "weak" people not managing to resist this xenos cult. - DA HQ decided to allow to repaint over the sacred colour of the original legion while they did not recover with the green to keep memory of the legion. Explain me how the sacrifice of a handful of terminators (quite usual in the general SM history )is more important to remember than the former legion and the grand treachery....? I've painted my termi in bone to recognize them but frankly, I've always considered this part of the fluff like the worst written part of our fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZONKEY Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 I have that feeling, the ultramarines lost almost all there first company that is a even to remember but only few saving the home world just seems a tiny bit weak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 As Chaplain Lucifer said, the color difference likely goes farther than the allegorical tale of "Two Heads Talking". You could take it numerous ways: they bear the color of death to indicate their division from the normal brotherhood of Marines, they are marking themselves out on a quest from which there can be no return - the duty only ends in death, or any other number of things that you could come up with. It may, in fact, turn out to be a traditional color and they tell the tale simply so Marines won't ask of Caliban's past, as that verges too close to the secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZONKEY Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 Or is it just the hodge podge of themes cause dark angels seem to be a mix of Native American with elements of monks and elements of knights ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 They used to be. Most of the Native American themes are being subsumed (much to my regret) or transferred to a different genetic heritage Legion. However, the Native Americans were not the only people to have a tradition of applying new coloration in honor of mourning/loss or signifying death/duty. I had actually posited before the new Codex came out that it would have been interesting to see GW mix up some more cultures into the idea of the "Great Hunt" as there were more cultures that actually had that mystical concept found within them. It could have been interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 It's important to remember when William King wrote Deathwing (the story) Codex: Angels of Death had yet to be written. In fact the second edition of the Warhammer 40,000 game didn't exist. There were no Fallen Angels and no destruction of Caliban. I suspect the Dark Angels home world had not even been named at this time. Apart from an unspecified 'dark secret' the chapter was largely a blank canvas. There may not even have been an explicit link between genestealers and tyranids - I'd have to check my Space Hulk books to be sure. The text of the story tells us the whole first company was present to collect the latest batch of recruits and that the loss of that world's population would be the start of a slow death for the Dark Angels chapter. Codex: Angels of Death ret-conned this to a single squad, a decision I've never been happy with. Modern Dark Angels don't even remember their life before being recruited, or at the very least are encouraged to supress it. There are so many inconsistencies and outright contradictions between then and now that the 'it's an allegory' explanation first presented in our previous (4th ed) codex is, in my opinion, the only way to make sense of it all. The alternative is to take the elements you like and discard the rest. @Master Avoghai, Dark Angels HQ had no knowledge of the matter. The soldiers present held a council - in the fashion of their people - to decide if they would return immediately to their chapter or attempt to free their people from xenos enslavement, a fight they did not expect to win. It was a tradition on this world to clothe the dead in white and, as they didn't think there would be any survivors, they painted their armour white before commencing the attack. This is also symbolic of them placing their duty to their people ahead of duty to their chapter. Five did survive and separated to each lead the rebuilding of a tribe. When another Dark Angels force arrived years later to ask where their terminators had been captain Gabriel agreed to retain the white colouring in honour of their great achievement and sacrifice. I wrote a precis of the story in similar discussion some time ago. If the correct rites to honour the database's machine-spirit are observed you may be able to find it. Or you can buy the e-book from the Black Library and read it for yourself, which I strongly recommend. If it wasn't for William King's tale of the ultimate bad es of the 41st millennium I wouldn't be here 20-something years later still expanding my Dark Angels collection and enjoying the passion we share of the deep and convoluted lore that has been built up around the first legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 @ cactus : I think we misubderstood on 2 points : - the fact that W.King wrote the novel before codex Angels of Death. It is true, and I reproach nothing to mr King. I reproach everything to those who wrote the codex : Angels of Death and create the fallen, Caliban etc... They should have think about : either keep it as a legend and keep the TDA black or say it's a true story and for exemple make only a piece of armour white.(like the shoulder pad or a knee pad) But no, they kept all the story and publish a book with total white termis explaining in the same paragraph that the termi didn't repaint their armour in honour of their legion and their primarch but repaint them a few year later in honour of 10termis sacrificing like it happens often in the SM duty... - about the HQ. I'm not talking about their behavior DURING the plains world incident. But AFTER. Once they found out what happened and discover the survivors saved by 2heads talking, they could have decided to destroy this world for safety. (We talk about GENEstealers contaminating a recruitment world for GENETICALLY modified fighters with maybe the purest GENE base of all the chapters... Do you really think they will risk further recruit to be contaminated? And why ALL the termis are bone white now? Because the HQ let them repaint it ! Why then did they let the entire first company recovering the legion's coulour? That's it I don't understand.., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 And that's why it is allegory... The color of the armor isn't really about the Plainsworld incident any longer. It's just a story, maybe real, but maybe not. Regardless, the Deathwing are white/bone white/cream for some reason. They just aren't telling us the actual reason any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Sorry Avoghai, I did misunderstand which of the many inconsistencies you were referring to. I agree that the Codex: Angels of Death treatment of the Deathwing legend was a clumsy cludge and it could have been integrated better. On your second point, if we assume that the plains world existed we have no evidence the Dark Angels continued recruiting from there. For all we know Captain Gabriel recovered the terminator armour then nuked the site from orbit. However Bryan has pin-pointed the current position. In-universe, the explanation given for the white armour simply isn't true. We can speculate what the real reason is, but it likely has nothing to do with genestealers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Sorry Avoghai, I did misunderstand which of the many inconsistencies you were referring to. I agree that the Codex: Angels of Death treatment of the Deathwing legend was a clumsy cludge and it could have been integrated better. On your second point, if we assume that the plains world existed we have no evidence the Dark Angels continued recruiting from there. For all we know Captain Gabriel recovered the terminator armour then nuked the site from orbit. However Bryan has pin-pointed the current position. In-universe, the explanation given for the white armour simply isn't true. We can speculate what the real reason is, but it likely has nothing to do with genestealers. Agreed. Was this all created by some continuity issues in the writing, yes, it would seem so. For better or worse, it is now and forever a part of DW lore. Now, why paint all armor white even if the Plainsworld incident is untrue? A fluffy answer... Simple - what better way to cement the legend in truth but to show that it actually had a lasting affect. The white color of the DW is "proof" it happened, even if it didn't. You could speculate on the real reasons of course... maybe the best way for the Deathwing to remain different from their battle company brothers AND The Fallen they hunt, is the white armor. Of course they can't just go telling their brothers that reason, can they? The fact of the matter is, the real reason is not yet written and may never be. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 @ cactus : I think we misubderstood on 2 points : - the fact that W.King wrote the novel before codex Angels of Death. It is true, and I reproach nothing to mr King. I reproach everything to those who wrote the codex : Angels of Death and create the fallen, Caliban etc... They should have think about : either keep it as a legend and keep the TDA black or say it's a true story and for exemple make only a piece of armour white.(like the shoulder pad or a knee pad) But no, they kept all the story and publish a book with total white termis explaining in the same paragraph that the termi didn't repaint their armour in honour of their legion and their primarch but repaint them a few year later in honour of 10termis sacrificing like it happens often in the SM duty... Um... More like 30 termies... it was a third of the company and 4 survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 IF we analyze the DW story through new fluff on the Cypher dataslate the similarities and the allegories pops out quite Clear... When Luther starter His rebellion to the Lion on Caliban, Cypher and few loyal DA Painted their armour green to show that they were non on Luther's side... Green shoulder Pad was the symbol adopted by Calibanite DA opposing to Black one (with red winged sword) used by terran DA... Then after the Fall of Caliban all loyalist DA Painted their armours green... Can you see that the story about the bone Painted DW is just an allegory of the Fall of Caliban... Probably the bone armour with red winged sword was chosen just after the Fall of Caliban and not after the Plains world incident... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aradiel Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 just to trow a wrench in the works, the ravenwind did retain the black armor also when did exactly terminators enter the 40k universe? 1st or 2nd ed? i have seen ilustrations of black painted termis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 First edition. I don't think terminator armour is in the Rogue Trader rulebook but they appeared not long after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nurglanth Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Just one thing to say! http://i60.tinypic.com/357qart.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HsojVvad Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 I've also always wondered how - DA HQ decided not to destroy a world contaminated by nids We are not Nazis. We don't just kill millions or billions of innocents just because. Yeah I know of what fluff says but they are quick notes and not fully explained. I can't see my Dark Angles as merciless killers and be so dishonourable. - DAHQ decided not to eliminate the "weak" people not managing to resist this xenos cult. Again why kill innocents? What is "weak"? You don't kill people for being weak. Again, DA are more honourable than this. - D A HQ decided to allow to repaint over the sacred colour of the original legion while they did not recover with the green to keep memory of the legion. Explain me how the sacrifice of a handful of terminators (quite usual in the general SM history )is more important to remember than the former legion and the grand treachery....? Again honour. What the few DA did, (can't remember how many there were) stayed and fought to the death to help the "weaker" people. I can't remember but it was like 100 or 1000 to one? They could have left but they stayed, to defend their home world. In that, it was more honour than what ever was before it. So in memory of that, they changed their colour. I've painted my termi in bone to recognize them but frankly, I've always considered this part of the fluff like the worst written part of our fluff. If you don't agree with it, then maybe you shouldn't do it. We all have our visions how Dark Angles should be. So do it in your vision. Be true to yourself, not by anyone else standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 We are not Nazis. We don't just kill millions or billions of innocents just because. Yeah I know of what fluff says but they are quick notes and not fully explained. I can't see my Dark Angles as merciless killers and be so dishonourable. We're not nazis indeed... We're worse. 40k imperium is a mix of nazism, ussr and Spanish Inquisition... And DA are not better than that, they were described as fanatic, xenophobic and obsessed by their goal of catching the fallen that they sometimes abandoned worlds to their doom just because they be heard of something about the fallen. It's not the fact that I see them bad or whatever... It just a problem of coherency with all that was publish in v2, v3 and v4... It's just the fact that if I read a book (or watch a film) with such a scenario, I would've thinking :"hey! What the...? It just doesn't fit with what you've previously written (or shown)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 And that's why you have to take the story as allegory... That's what allegory does, it explains things in a way that is somewhat understandable on the surface, but as you peel it all back, it is actually showing you the deeper meaning: a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one. We definitely have that going on here. The bone armor is basically a color representation of "Never forgive, never forget." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Indexes, the allegorical explanation may be a little more "acceptable" than the v3-v4 true story vision.... The only thing that bother me now is the fact that we, as external readers, don't have a clue of the true origin of the bone color behind the allegory that is explain to the characters... Just like now we have an interesting vision of why Cypher as a green armour while the DA probably ignore it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Funfact, we could pinpoint the time of the story to around the last century of M35 or the first century of M36. Or at least, when it was supposed to have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain sox Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Just one thing to say! http://i60.tinypic.com/357qart.jpg Stunning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 The only thing that bother me now is the fact that we, as external readers, don't have a clue of the true origin of the bone color behind the allegory that is explain to the characters... It can be bothersome, sure. But as I said above, the fact of the matter is we don't know because it simply hasn't been made up yet (or if it has, it hasn't been published). Key words: "made up"... This hobby never fills in all the blanks. This hobby gives us a canvas to create whole armies and the fluff that goes with them. If there is no solid answer, make one up until GW tells us otherwise - this is all fiction after all. Speculate away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 ZONKEY, on 13 Mar 2014 - 06:53, said: I have that feeling, the ultramarines lost almost all there first company that is a even to remember but only few saving the home world just seems a tiny bit weak A handful of guys saving *an entire world* (let alone a recruitment world) is weak? How could one even arrive at such a perspective. As to any sort of allegorical meaning, "Deathwing" would in no way refer to "Never forgive, never forget." (maybe Bryan Blair was thinking of the Galaxy Quest quote: "Never give up. Never Surrender.", which would be accurate :D). That would be the point of a "The Fallen" allegory. The meaning of the "Deathwing" allegory, and therefore the color of the bone armor, would be "Duty, fortitude, and perseverance in the face of extreme adversity.", as that is what the story is all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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