Movement

[Butters]

First,  I think that I have checked everywhere for this but if there is already a post could you possibly link it.

 

In the rule book it does not state what direction movement happens in except for things like regrouping and such.  So theoretically couldn't a flyer or even a monstrous flyer just land?  I figure the stem is actually about 6 -7" so they would be hovering I believe.  The same goes for say flying higher?  Take the Stormraven of even  Thunderhawk,  These are literally space ships that enter and leave orbit so why not fly high and get out of the way?

 

Or am I thinking way to into it.  

 

Thanks guys

[Dam13n]

The flyer rules on page 80 state that you get a pivot of 90' then move forwards in a straight line.  A flyer must move a minimum of 18" when zooming, so unless you have a building 18" high (on which to place the base) I think the answer is a resounding no.

 

You still need to place the base on a part of the table, models do not literally hover in mid air.

 

A flying Monstrous Creature can just land, it's called gliding.  Likewise a Flyer with the Hover sub-type can go into Hover mode and effectively land.

 

However they are no longer flying when they do so.

[Butters]

Why not a base with at least an 18" stand?  you could zoom up? 

 

Also since hovering is anything less that 18" could't you  just over at around 16, 17, 18"?  Hovering doesn't say its landed so you could theoretically hover anywhere within the max range(or in this case height)  of hovering right?

[Dam13n]

=][= Edit =][=

 

Broadly speaking, models in 40k move in the horizontal plane. There are exceptions - related to the terrain the model is moving through/over etc.

 

I suggest you look at the picture example on page 10 of the rulebook for the general procedure on moving models in standard 6th edition.

 

I think the point you need to focus on more than "can I do X?" is "should I do X?" The rules allow for a certain degree of flexibility, however the game isn't designed well enough to cope with being over-complicated.

 

The simple way to play is often the best, over-thinking things doesn't tend to produce anything that will play out smoothly in game. It may also cause arguments, which considering this is a game, and fun is one of the main objectives, is somewhat ill advised.

 

I get what you want to achieve, I do. Realistic flyers are something we would all like to see in game, and fully 3D mobility is a hallmark of aerial combat. However, 6th edition does not provide us with a good enough framework in which to achieve this. In fact, no tabletop wargame that I can think of has managed this yet AFAIK.

 

If you want to construct a home-grown supplement that would allow this, and your friends are happy to let you test it (and even help out) then that's great. But if all you want is a simple, friendly game against said friends, then it may be best not to overcomplicate things. When it comes down to it, this is a hobby, what you want to get out of it is up to you.

 

However in the purest, simplest form of the game, it's probably best to not over-think things and just move the flyer (and it's base) around the table in such a way that the base remains in contract with the table/terrain, without raising or lowering the height at which the model is suspended on the flight stand.

 

Does this mean that your model could move at an angle other than horizontal - sure. When placing flying stands on intervening terrain (which the flyer ignores) you will find that the model may have climbed, just like it will descend when it continues along its flight path.

 

But doing loops and barrel rolls, steep climbs and banked turns just isn't practical (or possible in some cases) within the movement and flyer rules in the BRB.

 

Sorry if this post was a somewhat brief and poorly phrased before, 3am is seemingly not the best time to discuss rules.

[Acebaur]

You can't change the base of the model mid game, nor can you construct a base that would allow your vehicle to not be shot at because of range. That's called modeling for advantage and is not allowed.

 

It seems you are trying to gain the benefits for zooming without actually doing it. That's not going to happen. The only time your models move vertically is when they move through certain types of terrain, like ruins.

[Butters]

I guess in a sense what I was wondering is why the game has to played on a coordinate plane of x, y instead of x, y, z.  When moving into building you measure the distance to the next floor as part of your movement range right? 

 

And actually there are no rules against modeling for advantage in the 6th edition, I believe.  

 

Oh well maybe in 7th edition they could find a way to make it work.  Just feels air units are limited.  

[Black Cohort]

Air units already have so many advantages over non air units, why give them more.  Adding a third dimension to units like fliers, jet and jump pack units would be more of a headache than it is worth for most people and be terribly unbalanced in favour of codexes with more of those units.

 

Even if there isn't an explicit rule about modeling for advantage, good luck doing it in a tournament or getting people to play you multiple times.  Models should be modified for things like rule of cool and being badass, not to cheat the system.

[Gentlemanloser]

Butters is correct on one thing;

 

 

That's called modeling for advantage and is not allowed.

 

There's no longer a rule regarding modelling for an advantage in 6th edition.  The closest the current rules get is to tell you you can't bring your own cover with you.

 

But that's it.

 

 

Models should be modified for things like rule of cool and being badass, not to cheat the system.

 

But my kneeling DreadKnight *is* cool.  And utterly bad:cuss.

 

It's also kneeling so it's easier to get a Cover save.

 

Don't you just like subjective ruling?

[Kristoff]

And actually there are no rules against modeling for advantage in the 6th edition, I believe.

There isn't, but there is the general gaming rule of don't be an a-hole. So, just don't t go there. You may find out what 'Dreadsocking' is from a practical example. It's just not worth it.

[Grey Mage]

Everyone just simmer the heck down.

You could perhaps, if you so choose, put your flyer on a base that is 26" tall. This would be going straight up.

It would thus be atleast 30" away from any enemies. This is problematic given weapon ranges. But hey, have fun with it.

 

Honestly, it doesnt come up. Why? Because its impractical. Doing trig mid game to make sure youve moved atleast 18" on the particular vector in straight line- not a curve mind ye!- is simply not practical.

 

So we measure on the X and Y axises only in most cases. For movement. We should also measure that way for shooting- though many do not, for whatever reason.

So.... why do we do this in the case of flyers? Because the rules tell us so. You must move 'forward in a straight line'. Since the model cant be shifted on its base, that direction is fixed- not up or down, but simply on the X/Y axises.

You dont have to like it. I dont like it. There are and have been better ways of representing flyers.

There have been several ways of measuring ruins movement in the last six years.... each quite different to the others. Agree with what works for you and your mates, and carry on.

 

The rest of you, stop being so hostile and actually answer the lads question before I lock this thread.

[*Furyou Miko]

IF you want a more realistic look at fliers, OP, you might want to consider Aeronautica Imperialis. Still not 100%, but better than the 40k rules.

 

If you still want another example of 'flying straight up' and why it doesn't work in 40k, consider this: You can only turn 90 degrees, once, at the start of your movement. This includes pitch as well as yaw, so if you want to fly straight up, you have to turn upwards, at which point you are facing away from the battlefield and need at least a turn to get back into a position where you can do anything.

 

Ultimately, you can fly straight up. It's called "Leaving Combat Airspace" and is on the same page as the rest of the Flyer rules. Once you make the decision to move a certain height above the battlefield, you're no longer capable of interacting with it yourself - whether being shot at, or shooting at it. If only because you're pointing your guns in the wrong direction. A Marauder or Avenger might be able to fire its tail weapons at that point, but they'll be out of effective range in either case because you'll be, as stated, at least 30" above the table.

[Gentlemanloser]

40k actually measures in the z axis for flies.

 

 

However, distances are still measured to and from the Flyer's hull

 

But a flier can only pivot and travel 'straight' ahead.

 

If you've got your flying at an angel on it's base, then you *could* make an argument that flying 'straight' would include movement in the z axis.  As movement isn't restricted to be horizontal only.

 

You could also model your flier on a higher, or shorter 'stem'.  which would effect interaction in the vertical with it.

 

 

Ultimately, you can fly straight up. It's called
"Leaving Combat Airspace" and is on the same page as the rest of the
Flyer rules. Once you make the decision to move a certain height above
the battlefield, you're no longer capable of interacting with it
yourself - whether being shot at, or shooting at it. If only because
you're pointing your guns in the wrong direction. A Marauder or Avenger
might be able to fire its tail weapons at that point, but they'll be out
of effective range in either case because you'll be, as stated, at
least 30" above the table.

 

While this is a sensible interpretation, where is this stated as a rule anywhere?

 

It would be thematically appropriate to have a fliers zoom higher in the airspace to be out of range of most weapons (including it's own), while still maintaining a presence.

[*Furyou Miko]

It's implicit, but really, between rules as intended and rules as written, there's something called rules as played.

 

Flying vertically upwards will mean that you need two turns to regain targetting capability. Therefore, you will always go into strategic reserve to reduce that to one turn to regain targetting capability. If leaving the board would cause you to lose the game, spending a turn circling isn't going to save you anyway.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well there are strategic implications.

 

If you have a Transport containing a scoring unit and it's your only units left.  Or if you Flier has super long range weapons/missiles (like 60").

 

But I don't disagree with you. ;)

 

This is totally a case of the rules not being robust enough because GW deemed that no player would ever actually think of playing this way.

[Butters]

Well there are strategic implications.

If you have a Transport containing a scoring unit and it's your only units left. Or if you Flier has super long range weapons/missiles (like 60").

But I don't disagree with you.

This is totally a case of the rules not being robust enough because GW deemed that no player would ever actually think of playing this way.

Wow everyone just blew up lol

I was just trying to think outside the box. My instance would be yes say a storm raven, which very clearly has horizontal take off capabilities and 60" typhoon missiles, could hover at 48 inches and we able to rain death with impunity. Totally broken and as stated its an x,y based game, not x,y,z.