Facing the "Imperial Clown Car" tomorrow.

[Warsmith Aznable]

This isn't a list-building thread, but more to do with commenting on the currently emerging 6th edition shenanigans and those who would abuse them, from a Chaos Marines perspective. Also, this is not a complaint thread, but a comment and observation thread, as in "how to have fun at the extreme edges of the current meta."

A friend of mine really wanted to arrange a game for tomorrow, so I agreed. He wants to do 2500 and he's told me up front he's bringing an Imperial Clown Car list. It's the biggest cheese list I have ever heard of: Iron Hands with the tooled up Chapter Master, Ordo Malleus Inquisitors, Paladins from the Grey Knights codex (maximum psy-cannons everywhere), and Legion of the Damned. His Warhound is still being painted, so he doesn't have it to field, otherwise I'm sure I'd be facing that, too.

I am going to run a Black Legion list:

1 Chaos Lord with no upgrades at all

6 squads of Chosen

● 1 Sergeant with Power Fist, Lightning Claw, and Plasma Pistol

● 4 Plasmagunners

● 4 Regular guys to stand in the front and take wounds

● 1 Standard Bearer with an Icon of Excess for Feel No Pain

● 1 Rhino with no upgrades to keep them safe from long range shooting as long as possible

My plan is to put everybody on the table, park them as far forward as possible, drive straight toward whatever he's got on the
table, dismount when in rapid fire range, and shoot plasma at everything I can draw LoS to. Straight up the middle, no given, every man shooting until he dies or there is nothing left to shoot at. Chaos Lord is just there because I have to have him, so he'll probably just kick it in the back and watch.

I don't even care about the game, I just want to spam more plasma than I have ever spammed in my life, just to see what it does. I ran just one of these squads against him one time in a smaller game, and it greased a tooled up GK Terminator squad in one round of shooting, which left him pretty speechless until he found out how many points it took to do that (a lot.) They will fall apart if assaulted, so I have to be smart about where I place them so they can shoot as long as possible.

I can't take a game seriously when my friend wants to use a That Guy list, so I am going to fight his super cheese with super spam. If I tried to run anything I would normally run, it would just be me rolling saves and removing models and waiting for the game to be over, bored out of my mind and slightly annoyed. At least this way I can do something I've never done before and maybe throw him for a loop. He will probably be expecting me to bring lots of war engines and flyers, maybe my IG allies for Vendettas or maybe even my super-heavy assault gun he knows I am building. It's what I would normally do against a normal list that was on the far side of average. But this list he's put together is just such total BS that I wanted to do something unexpected and maybe, just maybe, kill a lot of his 2+ super doodz. Seriously, because the entire reason he wants to play at such a high points level is so he can have everything he wants without having to choose between anything, while cherry picking the best units out of every source available, because that is a thing GW is unintentionally(?) encouraging by allowing multiple formations outside of the FOC and standard allies scheme they started 6th edition with.

Tomorrow I will come back and report on how this farce played out.

[Gumo9]

I have every faith in you max

 

G

[RolandTHTG]

Why not run the champs axe/sword/combiplasma, or just not upgrade 1 champ, then use the points to make the Lord an Apostle, so he gives one squad fearless and a bubble of Stubborn to nearby units. He's still not going to do much, but he might make a squad or two stay a little longer.
Also, check the wording on chosen upgrades. You can fit in a 5 plasmagun in each squad. Drop the lightning claw and you'll stay the same points. And who doesn't want More Plasma!

[Warsmith Aznable]

Why not run the champs axe/sword/combiplasma, or just not upgrade 1 champ, then use the points to make the Lord an Apostle, so he gives one squad fearless and a bubble of Stubborn to nearby units. He's still not going to do much, but he might make a squad or two stay a little longer.

Also, check the wording on chosen upgrades. You can fit in a 5 plasmagun in each squad. Drop the lightning claw and you'll stay the same points. And who doesn't want More Plasma!

This pleases Slaanesh, Prince of the Exquisite Art of Plasma Spam. I went to sword and axe on the champs, added an extra plasmagun to the squads, and dozer blades to the Rhinos just to make sure they don't get slowed down on their holy mission to deliver very hot things to the Imperial lines.

[Brother Heinrich]

What about snagging a few chaos relic predators with plasma destroyers? bare bones at 110pts a pop just rolling forward 6" a turn and dropping triple blast plasma plates with no Gets Hot! Run three of 'em and just pour plasma all over his dudes. 

Also from what it sounds like you'll be facing, I'd just drop the upgrades on the champions, they aren't worth it and they are a huge point sink. if you drop the plasma pistols, lightning claws, and powerfists from all the champs you'll have 330 pts to spend on exactly 3 relic predators with plasma destroyers... think about all that plasma glory my friend.

[Warsmith Aznable]

 

Also from what it sounds like you'll be facing, I'd just drop the upgrades on the champions, they aren't worth it and they are a huge point sink. if you drop the plasma pistols, lightning claws, and powerfists from all the champs you'll have 330 pts to spend on exactly 3 relic predators with plasma destroyers... think about all that plasma glory my friend.

 

Also true. I don't know anything about relic predators, they don't seem to be available in my AB program, but I could get some more points to squeeze plasma in somewhere.

[AtlasDM]

All this talk of cheese and spam... makes me want a sandwich... thanks. :P

[Brother Heinrich]

Here ya go brother, base cost is 75 pts. Print that out and show it to him if he needs clarification. Let me know if you need the full page I'll PM it to ya.

 

http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q532/mv8830/ScreenShot2014-03-15at44959PM_zps92068a54.png

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

I wouldn't leave that up for one of the mods to see Brother!

 

But I wholeheartedly approve your message, more plasma for the ruinous powers!

 

Also why play him with his super cheesey list?

[Warsmith Aznable]

Also why play him with his super cheesey list?

 

Part of it is because he's a friend of mine. I'll let him get it out of his system, then we'll go have dinner and hang out.

 

Another part of it is because I wanted to do something that would illustrate how the whole thing is absurd. My original idea was to field a bare Dark Apostle as an HQ and then nothing but maxed out squads of Cultists, but I don't have 400+ suitable models. Believe me, I would have done it had they been available to me, keeping half of them in Reserves so that the whole game waves of regular humans with pistols would come screaming onto the table to replace the units that were being slaughtered.

 

If it turns out to be a complete route despite my best efforts at super spam, then the next time he wants to do it I'll just decline. But if I don't do it at least the one time, how stupid such a game is would always be conjecture. This way I'd have a solid citation for why it would be no fun to do.

 

I don't play in tournaments, so for the most part this sort of thing doesn't really affect me.

 

EDIT: Also, I've reworked the list to remove the Rhinos and add in three Relic Predators with the special plasma weapons on them. And just because, I small biker unit to boost straight at his deployment zone as a distraction. I reckon the Chosen will footslog up behind the Relic Predators and see if the bikers can actually get close enough to flame template any henchmen (any shooting at them would be good for the Chosen.)

[Brother Heinrich]

I'm excited for at least a summary of this lol, there's a certain level of absurdity that holds a special place in my heart, this list has earned a place there.

[Midnightmare]

Do you need a Warpsmith to take more than one of these? The 'Relic' in the name is enough to flummox me with not having the book.

 

They look filthy though, I approve

 

Edit - spelling

[Andrés Pacheco]

Do those rules say you can't move and fire the plasma destroyer?

[Excessus]

Hmm, some lascannon lovelyness would be nice against those paladins though...

[Ammonius]

Do you need a Warpsmith to take more than one of these? The 'Relic' in the name is enough to flummox me with not having the book.

 

They look filthy though, I approve

 

Edit - spelling

No, the chaos relic predator doesn't have that rule.

 

 

Do those rules say you can't move and fire the plasma destroyer?

No, the Plasma Destroyer doesn't have firing calibration like the conversion beamer.

 

 

-Max-, I am really looking forward to your report after this battle. If possible, please get some pictures to post of the table :)

[Midnightmare]

Thanks for the reply, Ammonius :)

 

I am looking forward to see how they do for you Max, as well as all the other plasma spam! I fancy a pair of the Preds I think, proxy dependant.

[Valaskjalf]

Is his list even legal? Allying SM / GK and LotD? Or is that part of the cheese you're talking about?

[HJL]

If you lose it is because your faith in chaos was not strong enough.

[Clone]

Looking forward to this. I'm especially interested in the Relic Predator as I face paladins and centurions a LOT.

[daboarder]

relic preds?

 

better than cerberus forgefiends?

 

definitely sounds like a potentially awesome conversion though, was looking at grabbing a dakkafiend (div sorc, opens up SO MUCH of our list) and would have 3 spare ectoplasm cannons.....

[Warsmith Aznable]

Not home yet, but I have pictures and a battle report I will post later tonight. Those Relic Preds are worth their weight in gold. I should have gone double primary and taken six of them!

 

The short of it, though, is that I got tabled.

[Trevak Dal]

Is his list even legal? Allying SM / GK and LotD? Or is that part of the cheese you're talking about?

 

I think it's a Main Space Marine list, allied with GK list (OM Inquisitor + Pallys and maybe henchmen as troops?) +Inquisitor Dataslate, + LoTD Dataslate.

[Hellios]

 

Is his list even legal? Allying SM / GK and LotD? Or is that part of the cheese you're talking about?

 

I think it's a Main Space Marine list, allied with GK list (OM Inquisitor + Pallys and maybe henchmen as troops?) +Inquisitor Dataslate, + LoTD Dataslate.

 

He should have added some Tau. XD

[Warsmith Aznable]

Is his list even legal? Allying SM / GK and LotD? Or is that part of the cheese you're talking about?

I think it's a Main Space Marine list, allied with GK list (OM Inquisitor + Pallys and maybe henchmen as troops?) +Inquisitor Dataslate, + LoTD Dataslate.

I don't know exactly how it was arranged, but this is roughly what he had: Coteaz, 2 squads of henchmen with plasma and storm bolters, 1 squad of psyker henchmen for the large AP1 template, a bunch of servo skulls, a squad of Paladins, 2 OM Inquisitors, Cypher the Fallen, Storm Talon, Storm Raven, Iron Hands Chapter Master TH/SS TDA, Iron Hands tactical squad. He didn't bring the LotD because he's not done gluing them together.

My final list was :6 squads of Chosen (MoS, IoE, 5 plasma guns, plasma pistol on the sergeant), 3 Relic Predators (plasma destroyers), sorcerer (MoS, and some other stuff that didn't matter I just put on him to make it an even 2500 points.)

Scenario ended up being The Scouring, and the Deployment was the diagonal one. I won the initiative and he failed to seize.

This is how I set up my lines:

The idea was to protect the Relic Predators against deepstriking and outflanking by putting troopers around them, with a unit behind everybody to provide rear fire support, and another unit Outflanking (I got Master of Deception as my Warlord Trait.) I figured if he dropped anybody right into my midst I could shoot at it from three different directions, and if he put in behind me or in front of me I'd have even more coverage.

This is how he deployed:

He has his psyker squad holed up in that building, Coteaz manning the Quad Gun, and the two hench squads cowering behind the Aegis Line. His Chapter Master and Tacticals were on the Storm Raven, which was being escorted by the Storm Talon. His Paladins were assisted by his OM Inquisitors and accompanied by Cypher the Fallen, who put them into Outflank Reserves.

After 9 shots from the Plasma Destroyer guns, his gun line looked like this:

His Psyker template of doom failed to do anything to the Relic Predator, but he did manage to pick off a couple of my Chosen with the Quad Gun:

I moved forward and one of my Chosen lost a fight with his Plasma Gun:

Poor little guy...

Meanwhile, the Relic Predators were tearing his gun line a new place from which they could defecate, or possibly pass gas:

Every time I play one his lists with his uber Paladin squad, I always get a head start since most of his points are off the board. I try not to let it lull me into a false sense of security, because Paladins can usually make their points back by two or three times.

Speaking of which, they came in with his flyers, opting for distance from the rapid firing plasma squads that were at this point still viable:

OK, I have no idea how many pictures I can put in a single post, so I'm breaking this up into two posts.

Give me a little bit, and I'll have the rest of the pictures up followed by some commentary.

[Warsmith Aznable]

So his stupid flyers come on, then shoot up two of my Relic Predators, leaving me with just the one:

I didn't put any dedicated AA into my list, because I figured on either ignoring enemy flyers or having a go at weight of fire to bring them down. Unfortunately their initial placement didn't lend itself to bringing much weight to bear, and his load out was such that it just couldn't be ignored. Honestly, I sometimes forget he bought that stupid Storm Talon, and he doesn't usually bother with the Hurricane Bolter sponsons on the Storm Raven.

So, my Outflanking Chosen came in from Reserves, and there really wasn't anything else to do but throw them in front of the Paladin squad. My hope was that they would plasma out a couple or three guys, then tie them up in the next round by forcing the Paladins to cut through them in an assault. Also, you will notice that the Storm Talon is still there. The two shots I managed to get on it failed to even glance:

So I managed to kill one Paladin with shooting, then put a wound on another one with Overwatch fire when his turn came. I also managed to kill a couple of my own guys with Gets Hot! so there is that. The few that were left after his return fire got ganked by the Init 6 Force Halberds in assault:

So his Storm Raven parked right in front of the castle objective thing, and dumped out his Iron Hands force, then shot up a couple of guys with the lascannon and multimelta. I think my sergeant killed himself with a Gets Hot! during Overwatch, forcing my Sorcerer to challenge his Iron Hands Chapter Master. This is how it looked after all that happened:

Those three bastards didn't have the decency to get massacred, so I could shoot at them in my following round. They did kill a couple of his Iron Hands tacticals, though. That little lump of blue tack represents a plasma gun, because I had to use my assault Chosen to stand in because I don't actually have 60 CSM. Also I had to use a squad of SoB for proxies, and they're probably still mad about it...

The game is pretty blown at this point, I'm just rolling dice because quitting is for quitters. I was determined to at least kill Coteaz before it was all over, though:

The first thing I did was try to lure him into possibly failing a Death or Glory! attempt on my Relic Predator (whose weapon was destroyed by the Storm Talon.) Of course the coward simply stepped back a bit. Those Chosen on the far end in this picture know they're about to get a face full of Assault Cannon and Lascannon from the Storm Talon, so they took their shots at Coteaz while they could, putting him down with plasma. Also, my sergeant killed himself with Gets Hot! Those plasma pistols just don't seem worth it...

For whatever reason, he chose to use his Storm Talon to finish off the Relic Predator:

Then I assaulted it with krak grenades, all of which either missed or failed to penetrate. Sux. You can see the two dead guys from 3rd squad up there to the right. They died doing what they loved: screaming their heads off and hating the Emperor.

MEANWHILE, the lone survivor from the henchman squads hid behind the Aegis hoping nobody would notice him for the rest of the game:

I lost one Chosen to ranged fire from the Paladins. My final four Chosen were hit by the Psyker template and died. Those Psykers had rolled elevens two or three times in a row, so I had kind of forgot they were a threat by the time they managed to do this.

SO, when I showed him my army while I was setting up, his first comment was, "this is a good list!" After it was all over, I asked him if he had fun and he said he did. He also said I should have taken 6 Heldrakes, so I don't think we're operating on the same wavelength at all. The only thing I enjoyed about the game was learning how vicious Relic Preds with Plasma Destroyers could be. I will definitely have to convert a turret or two into those.

I don't see what I could have done that would have prevented getting tabled. I never expected to win, as I said above, but I was hoping that I could have put more of a hurt onto those Paladins. The lack of AA did hurt me a lot, but the way he deployed his Paladins was clever, denying me good shots on them from more than one unit at a time. That I rolled a bunch of 1s and 2s from my 11 plasma shots didn't help, either. If my Sergeant had been there for the assault, and had he and the warlord been kitted out for melee, it would have been a more even fight against the Iron Hands portion of his list. The mobility and protection afforded to that squad from the Storm Raven meant I couldn't bring as much fire to bear on them as I needed, and I had put all my eggs into the plasma basket for this game. Maybe I should have gone MSU plasma with a double detachment and added flyers, giving the FNP idea a miss?

It's not worth thinking too much about. I don't like games at this high of a point level. They are ponderous to organise and execute, and the tipping point is too far from the conclusion. But at least I got out of the house for the afternoon, and learned a thing or two.