20-strong squads

[Montuhotep]

As it says - anyone even consider running the maximum strength squad of regular Marines that we can get away with?

 

 I'm pondering a 20 man bolter squad, no specials, champion has a combi-bolter, all with the Mark of Khorne and additional CCW.

 

I fully accept the reasoning that squads are unwiedly at this size, especially since there are no transport options for them and blast templates possess huge dangers due to clumping but then again 20 power armoured bodies is a lot to have to chew through. Especially when they can drown you in bolter fire and then charge in.

 

 Also, the visual impact has a glory all  of it's own - a last remaining blue-and-white armour squad from Heresy-times.

 

Thoughts?

[Smurfalypse]

I have run this exact type of setup a dozen or so times so far and in most cases it has been a disaster.

Last time I did it two Mawlocks deep striked below and killed 14 total between them on turn 2.

Few times I had a Thunder Fire Cannon shred them to nothing in two turns.

Champ challenged a Bloodthirster, lost, unit broke, and the Thirster ran them down. 

 

It may work for you, but my experience has been one of sorrow :P

[Sception]

My thoughts are that you'd want to run them under huron, or they won't have much chance to get close, and even then you're better off dropping the extra ccwep and mark of khorne because it's just too many points on a squad that size.  You could buy those specials back and still have points for a whole cultist squad left over.

 

Do that, and they'll be a hassle for some enemies to deal with, though others will just AP3 pie plate the unit away with minimal effort.  I kind of like the squad when infiltrating, but I can't say it's been any sort of powerhouse, and I usually prefer running my dudes as two separate squads of ten instead.

[Trevak Dal]

You need them to be fearless.  So that's going to take either an HQ with them, Fabius Bile's upgrade (which lets be honest, burns an HQ spot), or the Magic Stick of Fearlessness.

 

The upside to burning an HQ spot for BIle is that they're strength 5 and fearless, so that stacks with whatever else you give them.

 

 

[Hellios]

I remember a time when seeing 40-80 Zerkers on a table wasn't that strange...

[BassWave]

Storm eagles have a 20 man carrying capacity. They also have decent anti infantry weapons. Proxy one and see how it goes.

[the jeske]

Chaos storm eagls are very bad gun boats and maybe semi viable transports [and that is a big maybe].

[Kilofix]

I actually don't see a problem with 20 man squads as long as you give them something for Fearless and send them against appropriate targets (like not let them get tar-pitted by an AV13 dread or overkill an opposing 5 man squad).

 

I mean, without proper spacing, Large Blasts will kill 6 men in a 10 man squad just as easily as it will kill 6 men in a 20 man squad.

 

Having run many 35 - 50 man Zombie lists, I think its just a matter of ensuring the correct spacing and targets.

 

Yeah Marines are more expensive than Zombies or even Ork / Tyranid mobs but really not by that much if you think about it for the added capabilities you get.

[Mutt-Man!]

I ran 80 marine lists for 2k for a long time. Four squads, pick and choose which ones I preferred at the time. Taking transports just to give them cover saves as a rhino wall they get up to then pass as they end up wrecks or craters. Either way they're terrain.

 

I used a squad of 20 that had invulnerable saves and gave them tzeentch marks. The following units sprawled out. It worked well last edition. Not so well this edition.

 

I kept trying though and here's what I landed on.

 

Overwatch. Pack 2 flamers and a combi flamer then go up a table edge with the idea you're going to contest/fight for an objective of some sort. Having them go up a side means they don't have their numbers used against them by being a large fat unit in the middle and everyone can peck at them. They're 20 guys going up a side and you are forced to seriously think about them keeping that table edge.

 

I suggest adding a helbrute to go with them or something else to make them less vulnerable to a wraithlord or something. Which is why I loved str5 units that made it possible for them to destroy AV11 walkers easier and handling those AV13/toughness8 things that tie them in combat for too long to get their kraks in. Because that champ always dies.

 

So a scoring unit with str5, already noted you can have fabius offer that to you, while being a great anti-wraithlord HQ to go with them instead of upgrading a champion to try and do the same. You can throw a unit of possessed, huge sink into non scoring but they can seriously take hits where there could be no cover on the side. You can always rely on that strategy if you wanted to use it.

 

When I mean side I mean he can't throw a wide margin of firepower that hits from both their left and right. It doesn't have to be the table edge.

 

One unit of 20 makes for a fun overwatch roll or can respond to throw lots of dice at a unit that you would never get the charge on in the first place. Like a jump pack unit that could easily kill 10 guys but hesitates facing 20 and would most likely lose their unit doing so. That's why units of 20 shine, melee units face suicide against them. Now imagine the 20 sized unit with 5+ or 4+ invulnerable saves. Sounds nice right? Possessed do have a place. There are so few AV12 rear vehicles it's either 10, 11 or 14 rear, so str5 is still viable with the loss of krak grenades. Frags hurt though, wish they had them.

[Spacefrisian]

Ran a 20 men Plague marine unit +Nurgel lord once in a 2500 points list, also had Huron as my Warlord, i can tell you that no one likes the idea of 20 tough as nails Plague marines that close to them.

 

Used a 19 men Noisemarine unit in Kharybdis pod and Sorcerer in that same list as well btw, the look on his face, he was using Legion rules from forgeworld and thought his 20 men were strong enough to deal with any list, until i pulled out this trickery.

[Slave to Darkness]

My Word Bearers always play outside with their friends sing 20 man csm squad hidden behind a large unit of cultists, never failed me yet

[minionboy]

I've had some moderate luck running squads of 20, but generally I only do so when I'm running Fabius Bile so that they are enhanced marines (usually 20, BP/CCW, icon of excess, mark of slaanesh), and now occasionally a second squad with mark of khorne and Cypher.  They do alright and are pretty fun, but probably not the best option in the book.

[Dallas Drake]

I've done large Slaanesh squads of 16-20 with Bile and Huron a few times... Not bad but both games (against Nids) they just got tar-pitted by waves of gaunts.  They weren't worth it against IG at all but did cause problems for SM tactical squads who struggled to out-shoot them & had no chance of beating I5 S5 FNP CSMs in melee.  The posters who say they need to be fearless are spot on, but then you want them to be able to do something in melee, so by the time you work out the points you'd just have been better going with cult troops in the first place.  If Bile wasn't a useless HQ then it might not be too bad, but he's too expensive & in my lists can only really offer Fearless to a camping unit of Cultists.  With cult troops it's about getting those special weapons, so 5 PMs with 2 plasmas or 5 NMs with a BM is always more optimal.  I did run a large squad of NMs, like 15 or 16 with a Slaanesh Lord on a Steed - was subpar at best. I'd rather run 3x5 or 4x 5 & have 3 or 4 x BMs or 2x10 with BP/CCW & 2 x Sirens.