Custodes vs. Astartes action at the Siege of Terra

[Honda]

 

Agree w/Honda wish they would get

some attention from FW but I think that is a ways off.Story wise I wish

they would get it together,They are supposed to be the Emperors new

bully boyz after the Thunder Warriors who could take out the more damage

than they recieved by astartes.But in recent stories the Custodes are

not that swift.

 

Well, they did kick some serious booty in First Heretic, and there was that one scene in one of the first three books at Ullanor when...<aagh, I have to back and read this again>...confronted with the Custodes, all agreed that you don't want to mess with them. There was evidence of some non-fear fear there.

 

They shouldn't necessarily be super duper men, but base WS5 or something like that would be interesting.

[deathspectersgt7]

They should be. But I'd rather have Thunder Warriors They Would be more my play style.

[Kais Klip]

They can be super duper men if that is what's required to put them in a rightful proportion to Astartes. There is no problem with super duper stat entries, as long as they cost super duper points to field.

 

Remember custodians are superior in almost (?) every way to Astartes, they just weren't as economically viable as our angels of death.

 

So when it comes to one vs the other, my custodian boys can 'pwn' all they want, but the Astartes have conquered societies fielding more pwange and so will continue to do what they do best; gloriously die in victorious battle.

[Piano_Sam]

I don't think they're too far off. They should get some attention in Prospero, alongside the Sisters of Silence. Isn't that supposed to be the second book they release this year?

[Wade Garrett]

Custodians are superior to Astartes in every way?

 

They didn't seem that impressive when they were dying in droves to the Thousand Sons on Prospero, or when the Gal Vorbak ate their hearts on Isstvan V.

 

More seriously, both The First Heretic and the Custodes centric short story "Blood Games" by Dan Abnett both repeatedly state matters are nae sa simple as "Custodians number one, Astartes number two or lower!"

 

Really, it's like trying to argue whether the Secret Service or the U.S. Marine Corps is "better". They both have different tools and training to do different jobs.

[Kol Saresk]

Custodians are superior to Astartes in every way?

 

They didn't seem that impressive when they were dying in droves to the Thousand Sons on Prospero, or when the Gal Vorbak ate their hearts on Isstvan V.

 

More seriously, both The First Heretic and the Custodes centric short story "Blood Games" by Dan Abnett both repeatedly state matters are nae sa simple as "Custodians number one, Astartes number two or lower!"

 

Really, it's like trying to argue whether the Secret Service or the U.S. Marine Corps is "better". They both have different tools and training to do different jobs.

Don't forget Wolf of Ash and Fire. The Custodians were dying just as fast as the Justaerin.

 

As bodyguards, the Custodians are probably superior to the Astartes in that the Custodian was trained to be the supreme individual combatant. But as soldiers, the Astartes take the lead as they work together. Different training create different strengths and weaknesses. And more often than not they cancel each other out rather than proving "superiority".

[Piano_Sam]

In First Heretic, Argol Tal thought that, individually, the Custodes were the finest fighters he'd ever seen. Indeed, everytime he'd fought their leader in mock combat, he'd lost (at least until he became Gal Vorbak). Their weakness lay in the fact that, as a unit, they didn't seem to fight very cohesively. Warriors, rather than soldiers. I like that, and it makes me excited for how they'll be portrayed, rules-wise, by Forge World.

[Kais Klip]

Disregard this, double post.

[Kais Klip]

I think holding alongside the cataphracti Justaerin is impressive enough, Kol :).

 

But I agree with both you and Wade in that the Custodes definitely are outmatched by the Astartes in a set piece enviroment. Throw them in an assymetrical engagement such as the Siege, however, and I think the enviroment would play well enough to the Custode's advantage for traitor command to consider them a separate force in their own right, rather than a niche supplement like they were on Prospero.

 

I for one am more interested in the exploration of their "Emperor's Legion" theme (if it indeed exists), and I think the Custodes will bring something which will equalise the footing between them and the Astartes and remind the latter of what it was like to exterminate the Thunder Warriors.

 

Who knows, maybe Babu will even get Oll Persson to step aside and show Horus who's really the first born :D

[Wade Garrett]

It seems to me that the Custode penchant for individual action might see them faring better as skirmishers out ahead of the main detachment than engaged in ranked up line warfare, which seemed to be how they were operating when the Serrated Sun ran across them on "Scions of the Storm" world, and Prospero Burns has them swooping around on jet bikes, which are rarely deployed in a "hold the line and die standing" role.

 

So, I'd say they fight more like Catulan Reavers or even Seeker Squads than anything.

 

And Aquillon was exceptional even by Custodes standards, given that he's the only one we've seen fight with anything but a Guardian Spear. ;)

[Nexus25]

Fighting between the golden boys and regular marines could go either way. If I remember correctly Castodes were better one on one but marines were better group fighter's. So any story with fighting during the siege with the two groups would need to show both cases.

[Honda]

I think the description above of Custodes as warriors vs. Astartes as soldiers really hits the nail on the head. If you look to Antiquity, a similar description between the Roman Legionary and the Gallic Chieftain could be made. One was geared for individual combat and the other to fight en mass. When each was in their preferred environment, they excelled to the detriment of the other.

 

 

I don't think they're too far off. They should get some attention in
Prospero, alongside the Sisters of Silence. Isn't that supposed to be
the second book they release this year?

 

I truly hope so as that is my most fervent wish. :)

[depthcharge12]

I want Arik Tyranis to make a last showing at the siege of Terra, coming back to the Emperor in a prodigal son way and kicking lots of heretic butt.

 

At least until he gets zapped by Horus by trying to defend the Emps...the whole realization moment because it still wildly varies who distracted Horus (though Oll will still be there)

[spu00sed]

Fighting individually makes sense, they are the emperors lifeguard, the last line of defence. As such they are unlikely to be facing massed armies, rather than the few elite that make it through.

 

They don't fight as a unit as each one is a piece to sacrifice to ensure the emperors survival. They throw themselves at the enemy in a battle in which one will stand and one will fall.

 

Custodes don't conquer planets, astartes do.

[Honda]

We still don't want those yucky pink guys touching though.

[calgar101]

Completely agree that individually a Custodes is greater than an Astartes. If this wasn't the case then why would the Emperor use them as his personal guards? Surely he would have replaced them with Astartes? This is probably like Which Primarch is Greater debate, no real answer. Either way the Custodes need more depth and their organisation etc explained either in a novel or FW book.

[Blood Angel Scout]

What's the breakdown for the Legio Custodes....was it 1000, 300 being the Emp's direct bodyguard?

 

Irrespective of the actual number, I've a thought that there will possibly be a different or structured element revealed as we reach Terra in the storyline that means different combat styles/tactics are evident i.e. a battle company of Custodes, who are used to operating in squads whereas those in First Heretic were from the Emp's bodyguard "company", used to test the palace via "Blood Games".

 

As for further examples of Custodes in action, pretty sure there is a short story in one of the compilations, The Imperial Truth perhaps?, with Custodes and Imperial Fists having a little dispute over the orbital plates being moved around the palace, think this is where I'm getting the basis for my thought but been awhile since I read it

[calgar101]

I have always imagined them to number around 10,000, I don't know why though. I would suspect they are not organised as strictly as the legions were. I am not sure if the Companion of 300 were formed after the Heresy?

[awfulawful]

there's no arguing with a power fist.

 

That's signature material right there, brother.

[Aralon56]

They must work well as a unit there inside the webway fighting a horde of demons.

[MordentHex]

In the old fluff, i think it was stated 10 Custodes slaughtered an entire company of thousand sons alone. so, if i didn't incorrectly remember that fluff bit, they are combat monsters in the extreme. they havent been show in the BL books to be that uber though

 

Edit:"Yet"

[Greyall]

If you're talking about the attack on a library during Prospero, it wasn't that extreme, there were about a dozen Custodes and three or four times more Thousand Sons, including Terminators and a Sorceror. The Custodians went for a direct assault, followed by a jetbike surprise attack when the TS's numbers turned against the goldies. The Terminators were easily killed, but the Sorcerors boiled a few Custodies alive in their armour.

 

In the end, very few Custodes made it, about three or four, if memory serves.

 

I think it's fair to say they're superior in the [genetic] engineering department, but really, that doesn't count for much in a battle setting. My understanding of the duels between Argel Tal and Aquillion was that, exceptional though the Custodes might have been, he was superior at heart.

 

And don't take the 'don't fight as a unit' too literally. They do, it's just that their individual skill is their greatest weapon, so they make use of it. In the first heretic, that allows almost all of them to take on the Castellax while one (!) holds a corridor alone against the ship's human defenders.

[Wade Garrett]

I'm pretty sure a fully armed and armored Astartes could hold a narrow space where only a limited number of mortal attackers can come at him at any given time almost indefinitely as well.

 

Particularly inside a spaceship, where no one is going to pull out the real heavy stuff.

[Greyall]

We'd spend the whole day conjecturing how that situation would go, aye, it wasn't the best example.

 

It's first and foremost a question of different tools for different purposes, but the difference in genetics is there, it's part of the fluff that the Custodians are more 'expensive', hence the Limited Edition. I still assume their reflexes, dexterity and perhaps strength are greater.

[Honda]

Agree on the speculatin' bit.

 

We won't really know how they are perceived until they come out with rules. FW will have to assess all the previous instances, what their current perception is (and it would be nice if A-D-B had some feedback there) and then we are presented with the rules.

 

Also, we have to keep in mind that if Astartes played like they were described, we'd all be doing Movie Marines .

 

So, although it will be painful, we're just going to have to wait a bit until FW shows us what they are thinking.