Starting Out

[Jolemai]

Afternoon all

 

I play Blood Angels in 40k and I'm interested in writing some lists up for 30k, just proxying with my collection for the moment. Whilst I have both Betrayal and Massacre, I really don't have any idea what I'm doing when it comes to 30k. For now I'm just thinking of running a vanilla list to get the hang of everything and while I wait for a Legion that takes my fancy to come along.

 

How different is 30k to 40k really?

What type of combinations are good?

What traps should I avoid?

 

As for what I like, I currently play "light mech" lists (see my signature if interested) and I used to play a "hybrid" force in the 5th edition. I also have a soft spot for themed lists such as a Death Company force...

 

Thanks in advance.

[Kais Klip]

Welcome to the Age of Glory:

 

1) 30k can be said to be a hell of a lot more symmetrical than 40k; for the most part the vast bulk of your forces will be the carbon copy of your opponent's, especially if both of you are merely starting out and taking a more generic approach to your legion forces.

 

2) Combinations are still being sought out and proven, as each quarter goes by more and more unique Rites of a War and unique units are added to shake up the mix of available tactics, so to that extent your guess is as good as many people's experience so far.

 

Someone passionate will come along any moment now and post a much more in depth reply on the gaming side of things, seeing as I've been out of it for a while now.

 

I'm terms of vanilla lists though, good rules of thumb to abide would be sticking to lists of 2.5-3k points worth, allowing you to take plenty of multiples of units that you will sorely need for redundancy and avoiding spreading yourself out too thin by taking unique gimmick units that will quickly be overwhelmed by multiple grunt blobs.

[Grotsmasha]

The biggest difference, imo, is that special and heavy weapons are they're own squad, so budget for them. Besides that big squads are better value than multiple smaller ones.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Jolemai]

Really? So if you'll excuse the terminology, hoard is better than MSU?

[ImpiousSmart]

Not hoard per se, but 'going big' on your units saves you points - additional squad members are cheap.

 

Take a look at the Rights Of War available in Betrayal and decide if you like the sound of one of them - that will steer you in what you can take.

 

Post up a basic list in the army list section (a simple list with units you're thinking to include), and people will gladly offer some tips. There's some similar threads in this forum too, and I can tell you that everyone here is incredibly helpful.

 

Once kitwulfen is online you'll get given the best advice there is in what to take!

[depthcharge12]

Really? So if you'll excuse the terminology, hoard is better than MSU?

Yes it is, you get discounts in troop costs as you'll notice in your books. Plus if you attach apothecaries to large squads, it increases their usefulness quite drastically and you will definitely get your points worth.

 

 

The minimum list you should shoot for is 2000 points as even 1850 isn't enough, and 1500 is like kill team for 30k haha.

 

 

As for tactics, there are certain better units that pop up in everyone's lists such as mortis dreads, Spartans, and Sicarans. Take a few if you'd like but avoid spamming them. While a Mortis Dread is all nice and cheap and great, you honestly don't need AA that much as flyers cost too much and don't see much action at 2000 points except for the odd storm eagle, but most of the flyers are transports anyway and they will hover eventually.

 

 

I wish I had more points, but within 2000 points I have 2 ten man tacticals and 1 8 man volkite calivers squad. The two 10 mans have all cc weapons too and move together so they can operate like a 20 man squad but are more flexible. The volkite squad squats on a home field objective and just blasts the everlivin crap out of anyone near them.

 

I run a ten man cataphractii squad as well since most people don't want those bad boys hitting their lines.

 

 

If you are doing a BA 30k list, I would highly advise the Angels Wrath rite of war as it fits them thematically to a T.

[DuskRaider]

Just remember with 30K, Legions are extremely large... think at least 100 Chapters worth of Astartes. If it exists in the books, a Legion will field it. This means that yes, there are Death Guard Assault Marines and there are World Eaters Techmarines, Night Lords Basilisks, etc. Each Legion has it's own favored battle tactic, but they are also so large that they will have anything they need at their disposal. Do what you'd like. Maybe for Blood Angels, make a Ship Boarding oriented force, or perhaps a Pride of the Legion force consisting of Terminators and Veterans.

 

The only thing holding you back is your imagination, although some Legions DO have units that are restricted (I believe Salamanders are barred from using Destroyers). Obviously there is some background you may choose to emphasize with your respective Legion as well.

[Moonstalker]

I appreciate the votes of confidence I keep getting, but in the end I'm really just a guy on the internet with an opinion.  I'll happily share it with you and I do my best to make sure nobody goes without at least some kind of feedback in the HH lists forum, but it's your money, your time, and your hobby.  Always do what makes you happiest.

 

 

How different is 30k to 40k really?

 

They share the same core rulebook (6th ed BRB) but everyone is building off the same starting point.  Legions might have some special rules, rites of war, and units, but 90% of what is available is available to everyone.  That gives 30k a potentially unequaled opportunity for equality... and copypasta.  In terms of C:SM vs Legions, someone else put it best, I think: 30k is Craftworld: Space Marine.  Think of it like Eldar Aspect Warriors, each squad is very specialized, and they all work together (ideally) to bring you victory.  You'll see significantly less use of psychic powers: while the librarian gets access to any of the powers in the BRB, he's expensive and a little low on the Ld front.  The really powerful psykers are either Primarchs or special characters, and I haven't seen people bringing a lot of them.  Expect more vehicles.  Armored ceramite keeps meltaguns from dominating, FW makes very pretty tanks, and you can fit a lot of very pretty tanks in your list.  At the same time, rhino rush/mech lists are not very common.  There's a lot of mid-strength firepower available to legions and tactical squads in rhinos are not very point efficient.  Still, it can work and the points efficiency differences we're talking about are a difference of 50 points here and there.  Leadership matters more, you don't have ATSKNF to keep your guys steady and reliable. 

 

 

What type of combinations are good?

 

Large tactical blobs and attached apothecaries.  Sergeants with artificer armor and power axe/meltabomb or powerfist.  Contemptor-Mortis brings a tough vehicle for an okay number of points with good weapon options and anti-air when/if you need it.  Its main downside is it doesn't come in a Talon like the standard Contemptor, so it's a less efficient use of an elites slot.  Meltabombs on things.  You can't rely on meltaguns, but meltabombs are cheap and still work.  Master of Signal plus a heavy weapons squad with missile launchers, autocannons, or volkite culverins.  Terminators with an attached Primus Medicae in a Spartan is the hammer unit in a lot of assault lists.  Forge Lord consul is one of the most versatile HQs (he can be anything from a pretty strong combat character to ranged fire support to a cheap HQ tax that you park in a spartan/storm eagle to keep it alive).

 

 

What traps should I avoid?

 

The biggest ones are already covered.  You pay a lot of points for a base squad, and very little for additional guys.  Fewer, larger squads will be less flexible than MSU spam, but you will have the bodies and wargear to make up for it.  A C:SM tac squad with vet sergeant is the same point per man with arguably better special rules to a 10 man Legion tac squad (it depends on which Legion you're going, really), but when you increase the squad size to 20 your marines are now 2.5 points cheaper per model.  Trying to take a little bit of everything will give you a bunch of toys... and fewer boys.

 

You should avoid feeling pigeonholed by a Legion's 'preferred tactics.'  The Legions were large enough that they had units of basically everything.  If you see a unit that you like and want don't write it off because, "It's not fluffy for x."

 

World Eaters are all crazed axe-murderer psychopaths, right?  Did you know they also had a strong force of armor and performed well in tank warfare?

 

Don't overspend on HQ's.  With 3 HQ slots it's entirely possible to, and it can be a big mistake.  You can pile a lot of wargear on a Praetor, but unless you're Salamanders you can't give him EW - and there is a LOT of S8+ shooting and melee in the HH.  There will be games where he is turned into a fine, red mist floating over ruined and melted chunks of armor before he ever does anything useful.  Do not spend 250 points trying to make him into a combat monster, because it will not work.  One unlucky invul save and he is gone.  Bring him for the right reasons and don't spend too much.  He's the only way to get AP2 at initiative without special, legion or character specific wargear and the only way to get RoW (without resorting to special characters, who are themselves Praetor-equivalents).  Likewise, consuls are great for their force multiplication, but spend too much on them/take too many and there isn't enough of a force left for them to multiply.

[Jolemai]

In 40k I can't get bikes to work. How do they fair in 30k?

[Balthamal]

In 40k I can't get bikes to work. How do they fair in 30k?

 

In 30k why take bikes when you could take....jetbikes

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Jetbikes with volkite weapons, no less!

[Jolemai]

Same question then, how do they fair? :p

[Jolemai]

Thanks for the tip about the Praetor's Rites of War, I hadn't noticed that before. Would you folk say that a Praetor is a staple choice? I'm used to avoiding Captains...

[infyrana]

Staple?  Depends on what you want.  If you want a cheap HQ with a few abilities and not worried about getting into character scraps - relying more on your units, then the Consuls give better options.  If you want the pinnacle of HQ's that aren't characters then the Praetor is your kind of Chapter Master.  Give him a paragon blade and other bits of kit and watch him eat stuff up (subject to you getting him in combat of course).

 

As kit above explains, they aren't exactly invulnerable to incoming fire whilst costing a good chunk, and when people are sporting Heresy era weapons, he's as vulnerable as the next target.  I think the term 'staple' really depends on what you and your army want from it, and whether it fits in with your ideas or the background of your army, or even if it fits in the gaming environment you are playing.  There's a collection of battle reports under the UM section of the board by thor, he has had some very colourful games with his praetor, chopping up monsters and HQ's with his paragon blade in true heroic fashion.  But I can see me when I finally get around to fielding mine for the first time - he'll probably die from the first bolter fire! lol  It's ok, I have a number of models I can use to make up a cheap 'staple' HQ like a standard Centurion that will be flexible and low in cost.

[DuskRaider]

A Praetor is required to run the various Rites of War, which opens up a whole new world of force theme options. They're also the best CC unit you can have in the game, with the exception of a Primarch. They can get pretty expensive depending on wargear, but honestly you don't really need much unless you're making him fit a certain theme. Mine is as follows:

 

   Cataphractii Terminator Armor

   Volkite Charger

   Paragon Blade / Master-Crafted Powerscythe (depending on my mood)

   Digital Laser

 

Not too expensive, fits my Pride of the Legion theme, is fairly durable, and will smack my opponent around.

[TheForgottenAngel]

Praetor with Paragon Blade, Iron Halo, Jetbike and Digital Lasers....It beats everything

[Moonstalker]

In 40k I can't get bikes to work. How do they fair in 30k?

 

I dunno, I can't really stand how goofy bikes look.  Who the hell rides a motorcycle on a battlefield?  It makes no sense to me.  So my experience with bikes isn't all that great, as I have never really tried to make much use of them.  My playstyle revolves around gunlines and firefights, not movement and speed.  That said, I think bikes (and jetbikes) in 30k are at a disadvantage compared to those in 40k.  With the appropriate HQ choice, you can take bikes as troops in C:SM.  Bikes in 30k are always Fast Attack and so usually non-scoring.  They're also hideously expensive (50% more than C:SM bikes!) and you have to buy a sergeant upgrade, they don't come with one.  The squad does not get cheaper as you add more guys.  They have some nice weapon options, but they're also horrendously expensive.

 

Now, don't get me wrong here.  You can't fully judge a model's effectiveness in 30k by comparing it to the cost of its mirror in 40k.  Things like stubborn, fearless, built in mobility from bikes and jump packs, these are much rarer in 30k and come with a price premium.  But you can almost afford to buy 3 tactical marines for the cost of one bike.  What kind of sense does that make?

 

Jetbikes are much the same, just more expensive.  They do, at least, follow the standard 30k pattern of expensive minimum squad + cheaper additional models, but that isn't a lot of comfort when they are so expensive anyways.

 

 

Thanks for the tip about the Praetor's Rites of War, I hadn't noticed that before. Would you folk say that a Praetor is a staple choice? I'm used to avoiding Captains...

 

Go right on avoiding them if it pleases you.  Consuls are great force multipliers with cool effects and unit buffs.  Praetors are selfish beatstick HQs that can unlock variant armies.  Use whichever one is right (or required) for your list.

[awfulawful]

 

Once kitwulfen is online you'll get given the best advice there is in what to take!

 

 

A truer statement has never been written.

[depthcharge12]

You can never go wrong with rule of cool ;)

 

 

I've wanted to do a jetbike command squad, while points expensive, can be a beat stick.

 

 

-fearless

-all power weapons

-WS5

-get cover save from bike

-T5

-2+ armor and even invulns if you shell out 5 pts a model

 

 

What's not to like? :)

[Moonstalker]

Sure, but that's a different comparison.  That one is more like Land Raider vs Jetbikes.  You're gonna spend points on getting that hammer unit across the table, the question is just how you spend them and what benefits each brings.  In the case of a command squad on jetbikes, you're saving points vs buying them a Land Raider (even a 4 man command squad with attached Praetor saves 75 points).  Yeah, you don't get an AV14 box to keep them safe in, they'll miss out on the 4++ from Cataphractii, you won't have another pair of Lascannons on the table.  But you get built-in mobility, protection from double-toughing by S8, tougher to wound, etc.

[Phoros]

 

In 40k I can't get bikes to work. How do they fair in 30k?

 

In 30k why take bikes when you could take....jetbikes

 

Why not both?

(Answer: because jetbikes can do everything that bikes can, better, for only a few more points. Being White Scars is suffering.)

[Jolemai]

General rule for upgrades in 40k is 1-2 upgrades per ten man squad. Sergeants would get either a ranged weapon or a close combat weapon depending on their role, Melta Bombs tend to be a staple choice. Does this ring a bell for 30k too?

 

Are vehicle upgrades worth bothering with?

 

In the Heavy Weapons squad or the Support Weapons squad, how many upgrades is overboard? 5+? In these cases, spam the choice like one would in 40k?

 

Do people use regular Dreadnoughts? They are out of favour in 40k due to being AV12.

[Jolemai]

Also, do people bother with Plasma Pistols? Many think they are a sub-optimal choice due to their points cost.

[Molokai]

You should check out the army list forum.

[Moonstalker]

 

 

General rule for upgrades in 40k is 1-2 upgrades per ten man squad. Sergeants would get either a ranged weapon or a close combat weapon depending on their role, Melta Bombs tend to be a staple choice. Does this ring a bell for 30k too?

 

 

Squad sergeants almost always get 25-30 points worth of wargear.  Artificer armor is so cheap and good it's hard to pass up, , likewise meltabombs.  And if you're doing that, might as well give him a power axe.  Vexillas make a lot of sense.  I'd say upgrades are probably more prevalent in 30k.

 

 

Are vehicle upgrades worth bothering with?

 

I dunno.  Do you like having PotMS on Predators and Vindicators, being immune to Melta, or reducing the strength of all weapons hitting your front arc by 1 (or blast weapons by 2)?

 

 

In the Heavy Weapons squad or the Support Weapons squad, how many upgrades is overboard? 5+? In these cases, spam the choice like one would in 40k?

 

 

You have no choice in the matter.  The squad is 5 guys minimum, all must take a heavy weapon, all must take the same heavy weapon.  The only option to arm someone differently is for the sergeant to exchange his heavy weapon for a BP/CCW/nuncio-vox.  Otherwise, you can just expand the squad to 10 guys.  And every one of the 10 guys has to have the same heavy weapon.  Support squads are very similar.  Everyone gets the same toy, except for the sergeant.

 

 

Do people use regular Dreadnoughts? They are out of favour in 40k due to being AV12.

 

 

I have seen, I think, one list with a Mortis Dreadnought.  It was a mix of the player having a cool modelling idea for it and them wanting to put two HK missiles on top for an anti-flyer alpha strike payload.  If you're trying to save points one of them would be okay, but the higher av and built-in invul save of the Contemptor are 100% worth the points in my mind.

 

 

Also, do people bother with Plasma Pistols? Many think they are a sub-optimal choice due to their points cost.

 

 

Don't see terribly many, aside from on Moritats.  Because shooting two plasma pistols on BS5 until you miss/they overheat is fun.  Kind of a shame, I've always liked plasma pistols.  Maybe we will see a discount for them for Dark Angels when their turn to be in a book comes around.