Hellbrute Formations

[Iron_Within]

Bit of informations now coming to light on the HellBrute Formations:

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/helbrutes-formations-with-some-details.html

 

I think they are starting to look rather nice, it will be interesting to see what is made of them. I'm *hoping* cultists and the Hellbrute form one squad as that would be lovely ablative wounds :P Doubt it though. Deep Striking Hellbrutes would be ok and a Character Hellbrute sounds good too. What do you think? Based on information so far how do you rate this?

[Nusquam]

I like the 5++ the Alpha Brute gets

[Sception]

I was really hoping for AV13 on the alpha brute, so I actually find that slightly disappointing.  Oh, well.  We'll see the full rules when the dataslate comes out, and I'm reserving final judgment until then.

[d@n]

I was really hoping for AV13 on the alpha brute, so I actually find that slightly disappointing.  Oh, well.  We'll see the full rules when the dataslate comes out, and I'm reserving final judgment until then.

I'm really hoping that hellbrute swill get the forge world vehicle marks like the decimator engine.

[Sception]

Would be nice, but I don't expect it at all.

[Midnightmare]

lol alpha brute sounds like a reeeeeally cheap after shave

[Iron_Within]

Only way I could see them doing marked Hellbrutes is in the Hellcult where they might be able to take the same mark as the Cultists. Doubt it though.

[Brother Ambroz]

I'm really pumped for this. Being able to even use helbrutes/dreadnoughts somewhat effectively? Hell yes!

[Sception]

It may be a bit early to assume they'll be somewhat effective.  I mean, they're still based on the helbrute entry, which is basically the worst loyalist dread entry minus it's best options (drop pod, marksman).  All I'm saying is that there's a lot of ground to cover just to catch up to a loyalist version that is itself already bad and that hardly anybody plays to begin with, so the idea that, even with three swings at the bat, GW is likely to hit one out of the park, completely overshooting the just bad regular dread and it's mediocre ven dread and ironclad counterparts to land somewhere in the range of 'actually decent' seems pretty far fetched to me.  I think 'not awful' is probably the best we can hope for, here, and we're a lot more likely to have a positive reaction to the formations when they're released if we keep our expectations in check now.

[Brother Ambroz]

Isn't there a rumor for a deepstriking helbrute? If there is, then I know I can find at least some way to make that effective. I think the murderpack with the character can be effective but we'll  have to wait and see regardless.

[Sception]

One of the formations is multiple helbrutes teleporting into play.  The actual mechanics of that aren't known, but deep strike is expected.  That might open up some interesting options, but let's not get carried away.  After all, deep strike, without access to homing beacons, is still worse than drop podding, so even deep striking helbrutes would still be less useful than the least useful loyalist dreadnought.

 

I'm not saying the formation or any of the others will be bad, I'm just saying maybe we should try to keep our expectations in check is all.

[Brother Ambroz]

Nope! My expectations are staying high on this one. :P

[Scribe]

Indeed, because I am a masochist like that.

[brother_contagion]

The DSing Helbrutes sounds good enough for me! Y'all think they'd DS at the same time?

[Ammonius]

Bwah HA HA! I just had a thought!!

 

The Apocalypse implications of the Suddenly Helbrutes! deepstrike formation get really really good with that precision deepstrike strategem. Superheavy? Heeeerrreee's Multimeltas!

 

I really should get all of these DV ones put together and painted.

[brother_contagion]

I don't understand how Chaos dreadnought is worse off than the loyalist one. I mean they've never been able to DS and they can get pretty much the same weapons and they have the same armor values. So what makes them awful?

[Scribe]

For 35 points they can DS all day, with next to no risk of a mishap.

Delivery matters

[Iron_Within]

I don't understand how Chaos dreadnought is worse off than the loyalist one. I mean they've never been able to DS and they can get pretty much the same weapons and they have the same armor values. So what makes them awful?

The Loyalists Dreadnought (LD) can DS with a Drop pod, which is a far better insertion method than a straight DS. An LD can take more weapon options and better ones, it has more options. And lastly less relevant now but historically it doesn't shoot your own dammed side!

[Sception]

Loyalist dread has better options for long range (rifleman > ML/LC) and better delivery options for close range (pod > walking).  even if a formation lets us deep strike, that's still worse than podding unless it also grants some sort of scatter mitigation.

 

and then remember that we're comparing the brute to the vanilla basic dread.  Even if our formations made the brute as good as that dread, that still wouldn't really mean much, because that is the worst of the loyalist dreads, when even the best of them (venerable, ironclad, grey knight, etc) aren't typically considered to be worth fielding by those who have access to them.

[Clone]

One of the formations is multiple helbrutes teleporting into play.  The actual mechanics of that aren't known, but deep strike is expected.  That might open up some interesting options, but let's not get carried away.  After all, deep strike, without access to homing beacons, is still worse than drop podding, so even deep striking helbrutes would still be less useful than the least useful loyalist dreadnought.

 

I'm not saying the formation or any of the others will be bad, I'm just saying maybe we should try to keep our expectations in check is all.

 

Pffft. I'm aiming my expectations sky high, deepstriking Helbrutes AND no scatter. I'll throw in a 6" blind bubble too.

 

Death to the False-Emperor! GAAAAAAAAAAH!

[minionboy]

I guess the one thing to remember is that the vanilla dread has to buy that 5 point storm bolter, and doesn't have the crazed chart.  Removing shaken/stunned 2/3 of the time is pretty damn nice, it's almost like free extra armour with some other fancy effects.

 

The trick is that because the chart helps combat, but has the chance to make you extra shooty, it's risky to go pure combat or pure shooting, you really need to be running a gun/combat weapon to make the most of a helbrute.  Additionally, with pure shooting, a predator is always more cost effective, while with pure combat, you're far better off with a Maulerfiend.

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

 

One of the formations is multiple helbrutes teleporting into play.  The actual mechanics of that aren't known, but deep strike is expected.  That might open up some interesting options, but let's not get carried away.  After all, deep strike, without access to homing beacons, is still worse than drop podding, so even deep striking helbrutes would still be less useful than the least useful loyalist dreadnought.

 

I'm not saying the formation or any of the others will be bad, I'm just saying maybe we should try to keep our expectations in check is all.

 

Pffft. I'm aiming my expectations sky high, deepstriking Helbrutes AND no scatter. I'll throw in a 6" blind bubble too.

 

Death to the False-Emperor! GAAAAAAAAAAH!

 

That's the spirit!

[daboarder]

I guess the one thing to remember is that the vanilla dread has to buy that 5 point storm bolter, and doesn't have the crazed chart.  Removing shaken/stunned 2/3 of the time is pretty damn nice, it's almost like free extra armour with some other fancy effects.

 

The trick is that because the chart helps combat, but has the chance to make you extra shooty, it's risky to go pure combat or pure shooting, you really need to be running a gun/combat weapon to make the most of a helbrute.  Additionally, with pure shooting, a predator is always more cost effective, while with pure combat, you're far better off with a Maulerfiend.

you know whats better than removing shaken/stunned 2/3rds of the time?

 

Doing what you want it to 3/3rds of the time

[Iron_Within]

I guess the one thing to remember is that the vanilla dread has to buy that 5 point storm bolter, and doesn't have the crazed chart.  Removing shaken/stunned 2/3 of the time is pretty damn nice, it's almost like free extra armour with some other fancy effects.

 

The trick is that because the chart helps combat, but has the chance to make you extra shooty, it's risky to go pure combat or pure shooting, you really need to be running a gun/combat weapon to make the most of a helbrute.  Additionally, with pure shooting, a predator is always more cost effective, while with pure combat, you're far better off with a Maulerfiend.

 

Dude that's true with most of the Elites section vs the Heavy Support Section for the Chaos Codex. What I can see Hellbrutes being useful for even if these are "OK" is for armour threat overload. Hellbrutes are lacklustre because they are easy to destroy, if you can get them where they need to be with 2 of it's mates then that could be a big difference if they are backing up 2 Maulerfiends, a Predator, 2 Helldrakes and Rhino Transports (amounts for a game pulled out of backside, not actually counted up). That's suddenly a lot of armour to deal with that's breathing down your neck or firing from cover at range. In the Hellbrutes case I'd DS it to back up the assault. 

[brother_contagion]

 

 

I don't understand how Chaos dreadnought is worse off than the loyalist one. I mean they've never been able to DS and they can get pretty much the same weapons and they have the same armor values. So what makes them awful?

The Loyalists Dreadnought (LD) can DS with a Drop pod, which is a far better insertion method than a straight DS. An LD can take more weapon options and better ones, it has more options. And lastly less relevant now but historically it doesn't shoot your own dammed side!

All that's really different is that they can take twin-linked Heavy Flamers, and can dual wield Autocannons or Missile Launchers, and they can take an Assault Cannon. But ours can take 2 Power Fists, Thunder Hammers, and Power Scourages, and they can get Crazed when they get hurt, the loyalist just takes the hit. Theirs are more shooty and ours are more CC. I mean, they both have the same armor values and stats (just talking about regular dreads, not the Ironclad or Venerable). Yeah they have the better DS ability, but we're going to be getting that ability too, and presumably all 3 of them will arrive together in stead of having half of them (likely just 1) arrive on the same turn. I may be the only one here (b/c I love Dreadnoughts) but I don't think ours are crap, just more CC oriented.