daboarder Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I don't understand how Chaos dreadnought is worse off than the loyalist one. I mean they've never been able to DS and they can get pretty much the same weapons and they have the same armor values. So what makes them awful? The Loyalists Dreadnought (LD) can DS with a Drop pod, which is a far better insertion method than a straight DS. An LD can take more weapon options and better ones, it has more options. And lastly less relevant now but historically it doesn't shoot your own dammed side! All that's really different is that they can take twin-linked Heavy Flamers, and can dual wield Autocannons or Missile Launchers, and they can take an Assault Cannon. But ours can take 2 Power Fists, Thunder Hammers, and Power Scourages, and they can get Crazed when they get hurt, the loyalist just takes the hit. Theirs are more shooty and ours are more CC. I mean, they both have the same armor values and stats (just talking about regular dreads, not the Ironclad or Venerable). Yeah they have the better DS ability, but we're going to be getting that ability too, and presumably all 3 of them will arrive together in stead of having half of them (likely just 1) arrive on the same turn. I may be the only one here (b/c I love Dreadnoughts) but I don't think ours are crap, just more CC oriented. So we ignore a 3rd of the options (without even mentioning the ones from other loyalist codexes), make the assumption that drop pods and deepstrike are synonymous, and then gloss over the drawbacks of the crazed rule and we can kinda, maybe, if we squint, state that a hellbrute is as good as a dreadnought.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnightmare Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 As somebody who uses two Furioso Dreads most games, dreads as a whole aren't that great this edition. They need a good alpha strike (which Frag Cannon/Magna Grapple Furioso' do in a pod) which the Hellbrutes could achieve with a few equipped with Multimeltas. Generally they need to be a fire and forget distraction, mine usually die turn two (although I do use them aggressively) as they can't be ignored, usually taking first blood but quite often giving it up if they failing their task. Multimeltas will be the order of the day me thinks. Can they take a chainfist if they survive? My codex is at home. Scatter mitigation, turn two+ arrival and only AV12 go against the 'brute but they are fairly cheap and expendable. Won't be game breaking but options are good, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother_contagion Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I don't understand how Chaos dreadnought is worse off than the loyalist one. I mean they've never been able to DS and they can get pretty much the same weapons and they have the same armor values. So what makes them awful? The Loyalists Dreadnought (LD) can DS with a Drop pod, which is a far better insertion method than a straight DS. An LD can take more weapon options and better ones, it has more options. And lastly less relevant now but historically it doesn't shoot your own dammed side!All that's really different is that they can take twin-linked Heavy Flamers, and can dual wield Autocannons or Missile Launchers, and they can take an Assault Cannon. But ours can take 2 Power Fists, Thunder Hammers, and Power Scourages, and they can get Crazed when they get hurt, the loyalist just takes the hit. Theirs are more shooty and ours are more CC. I mean, they both have the same armor values and stats (just talking about regular dreads, not the Ironclad or Venerable). Yeah they have the better DS ability, but we're going to be getting that ability too, and presumably all 3 of them will arrive together in stead of having half of them (likely just 1) arrive on the same turn. I may be the only one here (b/c I love Dreadnoughts) but I don't think ours are crap, just more CC oriented.So we ignore a 3rd of the options (without even mentioning the ones from other loyalist codexes), make the assumption that drop pods and deepstrike are synonymous, and then gloss over the drawbacks of the crazed rule and we can kinda, maybe, if we squint, state that a hellbrute is as good as a dreadnought.... I'm saying against a basic Dreadnought, not the special ones. Yeah there could be a draw back with Crazed, but saying being able to fire x2 or having Rage/Fleet is a bad thing? I mean, really? lol, If you arm it wrong then yeah you could :cuss over, but it's your fault for not taking that into account. Taking away Drop Pods (yes Drop Pods are better than DS, everyone knows that, but complaining about a new useful thing that you didn't have before seems a bit childish to me) and Deep Striking, both have the same armor and stats and a minor difference in armament. But it's like I said, Helbrutes are more close-combat oriented and the Dreadnoughts are more shooting oriented. No we don't have different kinds of Dreadnoughts, but that's why we have Defilers and Maulerfiends. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I'm not complaining about anything, we don't even know what the rules are going to be. I'm just saying it's a bit early to say they will be useful. After all, if it's just deep strike, then that's still less useful than drop podding loyalist vets, which already aren't considered useful. Brutes, like possessed, are bad enough that there's quite a lot of better they could be while still falling firmly in the bad category. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother_contagion Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 True, I'll be waiting as well. I'm just thinking it would be interesting to try. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Oh, I'll be trying, regardless of how good or bad the formations look / are on release. I did go out and buy the new model, after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I'm not complaining about anything, we don't even know what the rules are going to be. I'm just saying it's a bit early to say they will be useful. After all, if it's just deep strike, then that's still less useful than drop podding loyalist vets, which already aren't considered useful. Brutes, like possessed, are bad enough that there's quite a lot of better they could be while still falling firmly in the bad category. Well it depends on what point of view you take it from. Yes a Drop Pod Dread is safer on landing, but also 35pts more than just flat out Deep Striking (assuming they do not up the price). I would take the 35pts, but that is just me :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 The safer is a big thing. no misshap , deploying 6" withing the bigass drop pod doors , BA butcher thingy or sm av13 iron clad , if someone realy realy realy wants to do melee . But who . knows maybe it deep strikes and everything , including fearless units, must make a fall back move withing 6" of the place it deep strikes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 The one I am super excited about is the Cult one. If there is not a large points increase, the unit becomes fearless because of the Helbrute, and the Helbrute ITSELF is scoring then this will be the goto Troop Choice for CSMs across the board. 200pts for x20 Cultists, Helrbute with a 10pt weapon upgrage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minionboy Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I guess the one thing to remember is that the vanilla dread has to buy that 5 point storm bolter, and doesn't have the crazed chart. Removing shaken/stunned 2/3 of the time is pretty damn nice, it's almost like free extra armour with some other fancy effects. The trick is that because the chart helps combat, but has the chance to make you extra shooty, it's risky to go pure combat or pure shooting, you really need to be running a gun/combat weapon to make the most of a helbrute. Additionally, with pure shooting, a predator is always more cost effective, while with pure combat, you're far better off with a Maulerfiend. you know whats better than removing shaken/stunned 2/3rds of the time? Doing what you want it to 3/3rds of the time Uh, if you mean standing around while shaken/stunned is doing what you want, then we have different ideas of what we want our dreadnoughts to do. Removing Shaken/Stunned > Not removing Shaken/Stunned, no matter how you cut it, lol. The only times you really can't do exactly what you want are when you roll a 1 and have no guns, or roll a 3 and don't have an enemy within 12"... Remember that the 3 result doesn't force you to charge, it just forces you to run if there are no enemies within 12". If you're shaken/stunned and roll a 1, when you only have a Plasma Cannon, then yes, you cannot shoot, just like you couldn't shoot before. If you roll a 2-3, you can still usually shoot, and get a significant boost in combat as well. All that said, I don't think Helbrutes are a great unit, but they're actually not as bad as the internets says. I've been spending time testing them out and the only ones that have disappointed me are my pure combat ones and pure shooting ones, the dual purpose ones are surprisingly useful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Uh, if you mean standing around while shaken/stunned is doing what you want, then we have different ideas of what we want our dreadnoughts to do. Removing Shaken/Stunned > Not removing Shaken/Stunned, no matter how you cut it, lol. I would say that , if it was 5th and stuff was still glanced a lot it would be true . A lot of the land av12 stuff , gets blown up nowadays. I've been spending time testing them out and the only ones that have disappointed me are my pure combat ones and pure shooting ones, the dual purpose ones are surprisingly useful. A mon mutilator costs less , does the same things as a melee dread [with teleportation formation] but costs less . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minionboy Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Uh, if you mean standing around while shaken/stunned is doing what you want, then we have different ideas of what we want our dreadnoughts to do. Removing Shaken/Stunned > Not removing Shaken/Stunned, no matter how you cut it, lol. I would say that , if it was 5th and stuff was still glanced a lot it would be true . A lot of the land av12 stuff , gets blown up nowadays. >I've been spending time testing them out and the only ones that have disappointed me are my pure combat ones and pure shooting ones, the dual purpose ones are surprisingly useful. A mon mutilator costs less , does the same things as a melee dread [with teleportation formation] but costs less . Uhh, that's part of why I said I was disappointed by the pure combat dread? Not to mention that for a couple more points I can get a Maulerfiend instead. The only time that chart is rolled on is when you take a pen and don't die... so yeah. If you glance either a dread or a brute to death, they're both dead. If you get a shaken/stunned on a dread or a brute, the brute has a chance to recover, the dread does not. Read what I was responding to next time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kythnos Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 The only times you really can't do exactly what you want are when you roll a 1 and have no guns, or roll a 3 and don't have an enemy within 12"... Remember that the 3 result doesn't force you to charge, it just forces you to run if there are no enemies within 12". Actually, I think there are more situations in which the crazed table screws you over, than your examples. For example, I once needed my Helbrute to charge into an ongoing melee next to it, to lock an enemy unit there and destroy it slowly. Instead, it got shooting frenzy and had to shoot at a unit in cover with nice saves, where it didn't do anything. Needless to say, my unit next to the Helbrute was overrun and the Brute died in the next enemy shooting phase. It's of course only anecdotal evidence, but I think there will be many more experiences like this, where the crazed table wasn't beneficial at all, even with dual purpose dreads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minionboy Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 The only times you really can't do exactly what you want are when you roll a 1 and have no guns, or roll a 3 and don't have an enemy within 12"... Remember that the 3 result doesn't force you to charge, it just forces you to run if there are no enemies within 12". Actually, I think there are more situations in which the crazed table screws you over, than your examples. For example, I once needed my Helbrute to charge into an ongoing melee next to it, to lock an enemy unit there and destroy it slowly. Instead, it got shooting frenzy and had to shoot at a unit in cover with nice saves, where it didn't do anything. Needless to say, my unit next to the Helbrute was overrun and the Brute died in the next enemy shooting phase. It's of course only anecdotal evidence, but I think there will be many more experiences like this, where the crazed table wasn't beneficial at all, even with dual purpose dreads. That is unfortunate, but that's a 1/3 chance to not give you what you want, and a 2/3 chance that it would have actually made him better at doing what you needed to do! If we had to roll on that chart every turn like before, I'd be on your side, but now that it's only after taking a penetrating hit and not dying with better results, I find it more beneficial than harmful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I'm keen to see what the Dataslate brings, even if it's not the most super-optimized thing, so far they've been pretty decent. I'm most interested in the Helcult because that sounds kind of hilarious in general. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kythnos Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 The only times you really can't do exactly what you want are when you roll a 1 and have no guns, or roll a 3 and don't have an enemy within 12"... Remember that the 3 result doesn't force you to charge, it just forces you to run if there are no enemies within 12". Actually, I think there are more situations in which the crazed table screws you over, than your examples. For example, I once needed my Helbrute to charge into an ongoing melee next to it, to lock an enemy unit there and destroy it slowly. Instead, it got shooting frenzy and had to shoot at a unit in cover with nice saves, where it didn't do anything. Needless to say, my unit next to the Helbrute was overrun and the Brute died in the next enemy shooting phase. It's of course only anecdotal evidence, but I think there will be many more experiences like this, where the crazed table wasn't beneficial at all, even with dual purpose dreads. That is unfortunate, but that's a 1/3 chance to not give you what you want, and a 2/3 chance that it would have actually made him better at doing what you needed to do! If we had to roll on that chart every turn like before, I'd be on your side, but now that it's only after taking a penetrating hit and not dying with better results, I find it more beneficial than harmful. Oh I know it was unfortunate, but it was still pretty annoying at that time. The new crazed table is of course a lot better than before, I won't argue against that (and I do actually put a Helbrute in most of my lists). Hopefully the formations will add a few additional extras to the Helbrutes to give them some more options in how to use them on the battlefield. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Who cares what any of you think. . . Helcult bitches!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I like the 5++ the Alpha Brute gets I don't like that he's a character. Multiple Brutes that aren't characters can't get challenge Punked-they just smash into whatever you throw them at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minionboy Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I like the 5++ the Alpha Brute gets I don't like that he's a character. Multiple Brutes that aren't characters can't get challenge Punked-they just smash into whatever you throw them at. If it's a vehicle squad, that's still going to be awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ammonius Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Who cares what any of you think. . . Helcult bitches!!! Great. So... now I need to find a bunch of 28mm cheesecake amazon (or Greek?) warrior princesses, give them autopistols, and convert up a Helbrute whose front cowl has "Two snakes coming together... Facing each other! But they're one. With a sun and a moon below. Black Sun. Black Moon." Hmm need to file that away for later ths summer maybe. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 What about against a Monstrous Creature, like a Wraith Lord or Wraith Knight? The challenge blocking is what keeps me from being able to kill him (with my Zerker army). I have to "Forge the narrative" and run my Champ out first and try and get him killed so I can charge and get handfuls of s5 dice going into the bastards. I can only be thankful that with the current rules, GeeDub didn't make it so that one of the remaining squadmates (randomly) became the next champion, or that they started fighting among eachother to determine who was the new champion. Orky-ass bull:cuss. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Wraithknights aren't characters. Wraithlords are. Also you can try positioning the champion out of challenge range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Who cares what any of you think. . . Helcult bitches!!! Great. So... now I need to find a bunch of 28mm cheesecake amazon (or Greek?) warrior princesses, give them autopistols, and convert up a Helbrute whose front cowl has "Two snakes coming together... Facing each other! But they're one. With a sun and a moon below. Black Sun. Black Moon." Hmm need to file that away for later ths summer maybe. O...M...G!!! <3 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3627997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 What about against a Monstrous Creature, like a Wraith Lord or Wraith Knight? The challenge blocking is what keeps me from being able to kill him (with my Zerker army). I have to "Forge the narrative" and run my Champ out first and try and get him killed so I can charge and get handfuls of s5 dice going into the bastards. I can only be thankful that with the current rules, GeeDub didn't make it so that one of the remaining squadmates (randomly) became the next champion, or that they started fighting among eachother to determine who was the new champion. Orky-ass bull:cuss. Unless something changes Helbrutes do not have the "Champion of Chaos" rule, if so then they would be able to get Gifts and such and a few of those make things weird. My bet would be that he is not a character or will be a character without the CoC rule added in, meaning he can decline the challenge. We wont know until Saturday morning though, I pre-ordered this mess and am like super super excited :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3628002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Is the ibook version out sooner than the ebook edition or something? Ebook edition says it isn't out till next month. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288321-hellbrute-formations/page/2/#findComment-3628297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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