Hellbrute Formations

[Ammonius]

I was trying to find something else to replace my Defiler, now the 3 DSing dreads could be fun.

 

Or going overthetop and bring 5 Dreads with Plasmacanons and Missiles, the possibility of shooting 10 Plasma blasts and 10 Krak missiles..., or to wipe out a Horde 10 Frag blasts, 20 Blasts templates...omg...

 

I allready have 4 dreads from th 3.5 days, and i have 3-4 DV dreads throught exchanging models with DA's, kept them for conversion purposes, but i really struggle to not do it...

 

Man this is evil.

 

 

 

Thinking about it more, Murder may be tricky to use.

 

Say

there's a Knight Titan that you want to kill. But your opponent only

glances one of your Brutes with a Tac Squad Missile Launcher. Now, even

if you pick Fire Frenzy, your Squadron of 5 Brutes will have to fire on

the Tac Squad and not the Knight.

 

i don't get it, where does it says, that you HAVE to fire frenzy at the unit that caused the loss of the HP?...

The Fire Frenzy result says "If possible, the target must be a unit that caused one or more glancing or penetrating hits on the Helbrute in the previous turn; if not, the target must be the nearest visible enemy. " So you'll have to watch out for your enemy sacrificing a lower priority target to save a high priority one. Time and games will tell how hard it will be for you to use the rest of your army to keep that sort of thing from happening. It may be necessary to eliminate bubblewrap units more preferentially not only to clear space to deep strike into, but also to keep them from drawing fire.

[Sception]

If you don't want to shoot at one of the things that injured you, you can pick the 'act normally' result, no?

[daboarder]

and therein is the beauty of the dataslate

[Kilofix]

If you don't want to shoot at one of the things that injured you, you can pick the 'act normally' result, no?

 

I'm assuming you can pick Result 2 but then you wouldn't get to fire twice so I guess pros / cons.

[Urauloth]

I guess it's time to assemble my DV helbrute after all this time, eh? And buy the new kit. Maybe pick up a third one from somwhere.

 

I love the helcult and I definitely need to get to work on a 'brute for one of those.

[BitsHammer]

Having finished reading the Dataslate I have to say that for hilarity reasons the Helcult is my number 1 pick (something about a CC-Helbrute bubblewrapped by 70 Fearless Cultists running up the board at the enemy lines just makes me smile), followed by the Mayhem Pack. The Helfist Murderpack sounds good, but that's a lot of points to start with and a lot more if you start actually upgrading the 'Brutes.

 

EDIT: So dumb question, but if I'm running Crimson Slaughter would any of these benefit from the Crimson Slaughter's Fear rule? If so, that'd just make the Helcult that much funnier.

[Sception]

No, they would not get fear, as formations count as separate detachments. Cypher's fallen formation likewise are not scoring when fielded adjacent to black legion.

[BitsHammer]

No, they would not get fear, as formations count as separate detachments. Cypher's fallen formation likewise are not scoring when fielded adjacent to black legion.

Disappointing, but I can understand why they do that.

 

Well the Helcult is still hilarious for what you can do with it. I know the Mayhem Pack is probably the sure winner, but I imagine that many models coming running up the middle of the table has to be a bit distracting at the very least.

[Sception]

Im not sure the meyhem pack is the winner. Unaided deep strike is not exactly fantastic, brutes are hella vulnerable up close, and iwnd is not exactly fantastic defense for units that tend to skip directly to dead without spending much time in the injured but still alive category. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited go try them out, but the cult, with its fearless scoring cultists and 3+ cover for the brute may be the more meaningful formation in the long run.

[Hellrender]

I think the Mayhem pack can be good, if you tailor your list. i thought of a list with Mayhem pack, decimator engine, and several maulerfiends. That is a lot of armour either Deep striking nearby, or running up to your lines. That requires a lot of fire power that needs to be focused. Looking forward to run such a list XD

[brother_contagion]

Now that I got the dataslate, I'm totally getting 2 more Helbrutes to form a Mayhem Pack! DS Helbrutes ftw.

[the jeske]

the cultists one is probably the best as it is cheap and we take 3-4 units of cultists anyway .

 

the 5 man one can[technicly] double the fire power of a brut formation , but it costs 550/600pts . If 5 of them could focus their fire power in to a D shot , then yeah it may have been worth it . Otherwise it is ~600pts we don't have. specialy as it doesn't end at at those points with 5 bruts 2 fiends and a landing pad are a must .

 

The teleportation one is meh imo. No deep strike mitigation makes it very tricky and we are still talking about up to 3 dreads in points.

Some armies still run set ups like that[single deep strike melta] ,but drop pods are a huge difference from unaided deep strike.

 

 

The fluff was interesting.

[daboarder]

the big problem with teh 5 man squad is that it only allows brutes that have lost a hull point to benefit form the insanity choice. if you have 5 brutes and one of them suffers a hull point, you get to choose his "roll" but the unharmed brutes dont get to use it as well.

 

I think the mayhem and cult are where it is at. A pair of cult formations plus two minimal cultiswt squads will be a solid core to an army, and sure the cover save is vulnerable to tau and eldar, but it absolutely GIMPS a lot of what people would normally be firing at our dreads.

 

and the mayhem pack is all kinds of shennanigans, 3 IWND dreads in the opponents face is something that they HAVE to deal with.

[Tenebris]

Question, are the formations scoring? Can they cap objectives?

 

Because if so, than the Helcut is almost an autoinclude. The Cultists are buffed, the Hellbrute is buffed and both complement each other well. That 3+ cover on Brutey is golden if you march it across the board to pop things up and when he is dead, just charge your Zealot Cultists for more pain. 

 

The Mayhem Pack on the other hand, if scoring is a nasty kick in the jibbies for the adversary. Deep Strike, pop Autocannon/Plasma Cannon shots and hope for the result that allows you to shoot twice. If properly played and with some help from the dice gods we speak of a nasty torrent of fire in one turn and the best thing is that you have to knock the Brutes down or they will trample many unit. It Will Not Die is there just to make sure that you get those two turns of shooting. It can be nice if you somehow manage to come close with a Warpsmith to keep them in fight even longer.

 

Last but not least is the dakka... ahem Helfist formation. Walk across the board, unload your plasma cannons, repeat. As long as your pack leader is alive we speak of a nice volume of fire, and of five Hellbrutes that even unupgraded are a nasty prospect with the added rules. The perfect place to park a Warpsmith I dare say. Now my only problem is to find two more Hellbrutes. 

 

I think that the Helcut will be a standard way to pack in even more Fearless cultists than we usually do and if the Brute is a dakka one you can reliably count on him for quite some turn and the adversary is forced to use his precious Ignore Cover weapons to knock him down, and then... you have 20 Cultists that have Zealot without a Dark Apostle, nice to rush in melee at the first opportunity. All for the expense of 100+ points more than usual... I think it can work, that and the Mayhem. 

[daboarder]

Question, are the formations scoring? Can they cap objectives?

 

Because if so, than the Helcut is almost an autoinclude. The Cultists are buffed, the Hellbrute is buffed and both complement each other well. That 3+ cover on Brutey is golden if you march it across the board to pop things up and when he is dead, just charge your Zealot Cultists for more pain. 

 

The Mayhem Pack on the other hand, if scoring is a nasty kick in the jibbies for the adversary. Deep Strike, pop Autocannon/Plasma Cannon shots and hope for the result that allows you to shoot twice. If properly played and with some help from the dice gods we speak of a nasty torrent of fire in one turn and the best thing is that you have to knock the Brutes down or they will trample many unit. It Will Not Die is there just to make sure that you get those two turns of shooting. It can be nice if you somehow manage to come close with a Warpsmith to keep them in fight even longer.

 

Last but not least is the dakka... ahem Helfist formation. Walk across the board, unload your plasma cannons, repeat. As long as your pack leader is alive we speak of a nice volume of fire, and of five Hellbrutes that even unupgraded are a nasty prospect with the added rules. The perfect place to park a Warpsmith I dare say. Now my only problem is to find two more Hellbrutes. 

 

I think that the Helcut will be a standard way to pack in even more Fearless cultists than we usually do and if the Brute is a dakka one you can reliably count on him for quite some turn and the adversary is forced to use his precious Ignore Cover weapons to knock him down, and then... you have 20 Cultists that have Zealot without a Dark Apostle, nice to rush in melee at the first opportunity. All for the expense of 100+ points more than usual... I think it can work, that and the Mayhem. 

YES formations are a "separate detachment" but they still occupy FOC slots in the sense that a troops choice in a formation is still a scoring model, its in the front of the actual dataslates

 

edit: though that means only the cultists are scoring.

[Mutt-Man!]

Walkers can overwatch, therefore twin linked and template weapons are ideal. Because of the balance of the crazed table, melee and firepower it's sensible to run mixed firepower. Because a dread with a short range and/or str7 and under guns can be tapped by AV14 and caused to craze fire at the vehicle it is unable to harm it's wise to go str8 and up.

 

Remember you can trade your MM for a dread CCW and change out the other arm for a Missile Launcher for a reversed dreadnought loadout. So technically you can consider that an option if you want the odd combo. I used to run with that last codex when I could frag the nearby rhino he was firing at that happened to be on his side. While picking Krak for the other stuff when I could pick the target. So I have a few of those around.

 

Because of the BS and Initiative they've got they make great pseudo-obliterators with more melee attached and the ability to ignore str5 and under unless someone is lucky and can fire in the back of one.

 

Two of them cost about a land raider with Twin Lascannons. Something to think about.

 

Before this dataslate I always used to tell people who said they suck: "Look at what codex they come from, We get big stuff in every slot except troops and our troops can eat up monstrous creatures with ease." Then next week I'd bring in my 3 defiler 3 helbrute 2 prince 1500 point army if I knew they'd be there. Now I can just bring helbrutes with some troops in reserve to pick up the pieces. No need to buy non scoring death company to let me have more than 6 "dreads". If you keep the helbrute balanced with some power and range to the gun(s) they won't pick on them so much I find.

[Nehekhare]

hm...

 

the murderpack is out. choosing crazed results does not provide crazed markers. firefrenzy only keeps the whole unit from moving (or have them abandon the crazed brute) and doesn't even remove shaken/stunned, so may only double snapshots/destroyed weapons or worse - cost another HP from 2x immobilized.

 

helcult is nice for fearless cultists, but it will be very difficult to claim the 3+ because tiny cultists won't cover 25% of the vehicle even if b2b. And you still need compulsory troops choices in your CSM detatchment.

 

mayham pack is okay, yet a randumbness of dilemmata: DS too close and mishap, DS too far out of flamer/max charge range, take ranged weapons and roll blood frenzy, take CCWs and roll fire frenzy, roll badly for reserves and never do anything with your 300+ pts.

[Smurfalypse]

Im not sure the meyhem pack is the winner. Unaided deep strike is not exactly fantastic, brutes are hella vulnerable up close, and iwnd is not exactly fantastic defense for units that tend to skip directly to dead without spending much time in the injured but still alive category. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited go try them out, but the cult, with its fearless scoring cultists and 3+ cover for the brute may be the more meaningful formation in the long run.

 

Throw them on a Landing Pad and gain your 4++ and just do the double shooty Helbrutes. . . That is a decent fire base (expensive though).

[Trevak Dal]

Welp, Counts as Decimators is the way forward for me I guess, LOL.

[Nehekhare]

Throw them on a Landing Pad and gain your 4++ and just do the double shooty Helbrutes. . . That is a decent fire base (expensive though).

 

this is terrible advice...

a) would have to "just" roll a 1 on d3 for fire frenzy

b) skyshield provides DS without scatter or 4++

c) not a single shot until reserves arrive.

 

did you confuse the mayhem pack with the murderpack? but it's bad even for them, since they need crazed markers to benefit from crazed results.

[the jeske]

Playtested the cult a bit . Solid formation . Specialy as the fearless stays on even , if the dread goes puff.

[Sception]

Ugh, how did we all read the murderfist wrong last night? I wake up this morning ready to throw out the landing pad suggestion as a very expensive but potentially pretty cool sort of mechadev squad, but with the crazed results only applying to brutes with markers, it really isn't worth it.

 

It's such a shame brutes aren't daemons or you could try for a 2++ brutestar. I guess as a formation at least they get more out of buffs, but no, as far as I can tell, if I ever run 5 brutes, it will be two cults and a meyhem pack.

[the jeske]

Ugh, how did we all read the murderfist wrong last night?

Well I  said it is only technicly possible . the 5 dread is a squadron so you could [again technicly] spread 5 glancing shots on 5 different dreads [the leader helping with this a lot] . And then you have the tokens on all and can double tap etc. But it just costs too much .

 

I blame the mistake on people wanting to use the models. I realy wanted to use the key when csm came out , I think I played it wrong like 10+times before It finaly got to me that it is impossible to make it work . Same with the dreads and others.

[Sception]

Trying to pass around damage results mostly just vseems likely to result in more dead dreads, and the pad is practically required as a defensive measure, but makes damage results less likely.

 

sigh. I've said for a while that the three main failings of brutes were durability, delivery, and firepower, and it seemed like we were about to get a formation for each, but with the murderfist as it is, it isn't the firepower answer I was hoping for.

[BitsHammer]

hm...

 

the murderpack is out. choosing crazed results does not provide crazed markers. firefrenzy only keeps the whole unit from moving (or have them abandon the crazed brute) and doesn't even remove shaken/stunned, so may only double snapshots/destroyed weapons or worse - cost another HP from 2x immobilized.

 

helcult is nice for fearless cultists, but it will be very difficult to claim the 3+ because tiny cultists won't cover 25% of the vehicle even if b2b. And you still need compulsory troops choices in your CSM detatchment.

 

mayham pack is okay, yet a randumbness of dilemmata: DS too close and mishap, DS too far out of flamer/max charge range, take ranged weapons and roll blood frenzy, take CCWs and roll fire frenzy, roll badly for reserves and never do anything with your 300+ pts.

 

 

Cultists don't need to cover 25% of the vehicle, they just need to be between whatever is shooting at the 'Brute and at least "partially obscure" it. That won't give the 'Brute a 3+ against things that are on really tall buildings (unless you cluster the Cultists around enough), but from most things he should get a cover save.