Hellbrute Formations

[Chaeron]

But at the same time, victory is rarely measured by the paradigm of "Did it make its points back?"

 

I'm at my like quotient for the day, but will quote this for truth.

 

Although a consideration, we shouldn't be looking at those sorts of trade-offs.

[Iron_Within]

But at the same time, victory is rarely measured by the paradigm of "Did it make its points back?"

 

Very true, but from the short description of what happened with the Mayhem pack it did seem to achieve it's objectives, it tied up and destroyed valuable units, something which would be more difficult with other warmachines (can do one, the other but not both). IMO that's what the Mayhem pack is for; destroying targets and causing... well mayhem, they are a big monkey wrench in the middle on an opponents plans. They have downsides yeah, they can tarpit but only if there is no hidden fist, they are lightly armoured for their job, they can scatter, all of which makes them less reliable. But, the thing I'm still struggling with is it takes 3 times as many units at minimum to take down a Mayhem pack over a Obliterator unit (3 units shoot at 3 units, 1 unit at 1 units, you get the idea). 

 

Hellrender, was it that you had an objective in mind that they failed to achieve or did they do the things you wanted but felt like it was a bigger struggle with them over the oblits? Because I'm failing to see where they've gone wrong in their operation. Please Enlighten

[Fibonacci]

Ah, yes.  How does the old proverb go?  "The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's where you put your money."

[Sception]

I think the proof will be in the pudding, here. I've returned to a more skeptical default state, now that the initial excitement of the list has worn off, but time & testing will win out. I was skeptical of maulers, too and they've proven decent, while my skepticism of possessed, for instance, has proven totally valid. I'm not saying the mayhem pack is definitely bad, just that I'm starting to have my doubts about it being any good.

[totgeboren]

What is the criteria for being 'good'? I think the Mayhem Pack turns Helbrutes from being 'crap' to being 'ok' in my book, but at the same time they are not a IWIN-button.

To me that makes them good, since I play in a medium (only rarely highly) competitive environment, which means I can now use my Helbrutes without simply handing the game over.

If I was only in a highly competitive environment, they would probably not make it into lists, but on the other hand I would not own any Helbrutes to begin with.

I think they could work well if combined with a rush-list. Maulerfiends and spawns should complement the Helbrutes nicely if they are all rampaging around in the enemy deployment zone by turn 2.

[daboarder]

Good would mean that they reliably perform a significant or necessary role on the board for the appropriate points investment.

[Sception]

I just think there's a bit more gradation than 'crap, ok, automatic win button'.  I think a crap unit can get some buffs and still not make it all the way to 'ok', and that there's still an open space of 'good' between 'ok' and 'autowinzomggolly geebbqwinbutton'.

[Wokeg]

Hi, I'm an aspiring chaos champion whose been looking around a little while for hints and tips to help my game improve and so far found some major hate about my codex (rightly so in parts but I'm new so forgive me for a while please) but regardless about that, would the mahem pack not be best paired with a jump pack or bike lord/sorcerer or flying DP with dimensional key to get the easy kill and 12" perfect DS bubble for next turn? To me this sounds like a solid tactic but as I said I'm new.

[daboarder]

the problem with the key is that you wont unlock it till the end of turn 2 at the earliest, and by then your brutes have shown up already 2/3rds of te time

[Kilofix]

Hi, I'm an aspiring chaos champion whose been looking around a little while for hints and tips to help my game improve and so far found some major hate about my codex (rightly so in parts but I'm new so forgive me for a while please) but regardless about that, would the mahem pack not be best paired with a jump pack or bike lord/sorcerer or flying DP with dimensional key to get the easy kill and 12" perfect DS bubble for next turn? To me this sounds like a solid tactic but as I said I'm new.

 

Doesn't usually work because Lord will usually only get into CC to kill at the end of Turn 2.

 

Deep Striking units usually show up at the start of Turn 2.

 

Though it's possible if you happen to go second, the enemy Infiltrates in and you get a Turn 1 kill or your forces fail the roll and come in Turn 3.

[Slayer le Boucher]

But at the same time, victory is rarely measured by the paradigm of "Did it make its points back?"

 

Its true, but i rather have a 100pts model destroy 360pts worth of my ennemy models, then only 80pts or zero points.

 

And those 360pts the dread destroyed, while not giving you outrigth victory, it did buy you enough time for your others units that din't have to deal with it, and thus deal with something else, wich in my book is a good situation.

 

When i think about it, we complains alot that there is no dedication to a God for vehicles, but then again, the only thing that dedication gave us in 3.5 was Khorne= Destroyer, Tzeentch=Warpflame gargoyles etc etc.

 

Its not like we ever had a +1 in any stat like the marks gave other models, and all those upgrades still exists for some of them, and are now unrestricted.

 

But it is true that some of them doesn't work like they used to, hte Destroyer for example can now only be taken by tanks, wich is a shame, i would loved the idea of a Dread ramming in a vehicle using it and having to reroll 1 to hit roll...

[daboarder]

 

But at the same time, victory is rarely measured by the paradigm of "Did it make its points back?"

 

Its true, but i rather have a 100pts model destroy 360pts worth of my ennemy models, then only 80pts or zero points.

 

And those 360pts the dread destroyed, while not giving you outrigth victory, it did buy you enough time for your others units that din't have to deal with it, and thus deal with something else, wich in my book is a good situation.

 

When i think about it, we complains alot that there is no dedication to a God for vehicles, but then again, the only thing that dedication gave us in 3.5 was Khorne= Destroyer, Tzeentch=Warpflame gargoyles etc etc.

 

Its not like we ever had a +1 in any stat like the marks gave other models, and all those upgrades still exists for some of them, and are now unrestricted.

 

But it is true that some of them doesn't work like they used to, hte Destroyer for example can now only be taken by tanks, wich is a shame, i would loved the idea of a Dread ramming in a vehicle using it and having to reroll 1 to hit roll...

 

dude, Nurgle vehicles had +1 Front AV

[Slayer le Boucher]

Nope.

 

Nurgle vehicles could purchase a plague encensor, they then had the Nurgle rot power.

 

The +1 AV was a generic upgrade and it was on all sides, but +30pts.

 

Then the Parasitic possesion, wich repaired immobilized and weapon destroyed results on 4+...

 

darn it...i'm becoming Nostalgic again...

[Hezirah]

good times, good times.......

[BitsHammer]

I'd really like to see Daemon Engines get the ability to pay a few points to gain "Daemon of _________" rules. As for the Helbrute, marks would be nice. I don't know if I'd really hand out the old ones though (especially Nurgle, it's already too much of a "go too" Mark for everything else and we really need to buff the other options for a change).

[Scribe]

Really they just should have pulled the trigger, every walker or daemon engine should have IWND, Daemon, Daemonforge. That would unify the theme across the book, but oh well.

 

I ordered a Helbrute for a Helcult off my discount vendor, I have no regrets.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Well thats the lack of synergy that there is between CSM and Deamons.

 

CSM have models with the Deamon rules and Marks, but they do not count has being Deamons of...

 

While the Deamon dex has obviously lots of stuff that works for Deamons, but the majority are restricted to things like Deamons of...

 

WHile in a FaQ or in the Deamon codex a simple line with " a model with the Deamon rule, that also bears a mark of a particular god, count as being a Deamon of that good, for all rules and purposes" would have fixed it.

 

Would be cool for CSM Deamons models with moK if there is a Blood Throne with a Herald nearby...

 

 

 

 

Really
they just should have pulled the trigger, every walker or daemon engine
should have IWND, Daemon, Daemonforge. That would unify the theme
across the book, but oh well.

 

I ordered a Helbrute for a Helcult off my discount vendor, I have no regrets.

 

Yeah was also really surprised to not see thoses rules on the Soul grinders profil...

[Scribe]

Difference is, Grinders are Daemon of X. Which is a unity across THAT book.

 

GW just didnt have the nuts to do it for the Helbrute, and didnt have the sense to do it here. No harm no foul, the model does look decent (imo of course) and the Helcult has some annoying potential, who wants to dig out fearless 4pt models? :p

[Shaolin_Monkey]

A question on the helcult formation for you all:

 

If I take a helcult in an army with Typhus, can I upgrade the helcult cultists to plague zombies. I know it's a little pointless but I like the idea of dreads wading through a sea of zombies!

[Slayer le Boucher]

Like Malisteen pointed out its possible.

 

Because the rule from Typhus that changes Cultists in Zombies doesn't says" ...cultists units taken in the primary detachement" or anything like it, just Cultists units from the army.

 

While the Cultists from the formation are from a tertiary detachement, they are still part of the army as a whole.

[Plaguecaster]

Taking hellcults with Typhus could be worthwhile I think after all they do gain feel no pain which can make the hellbrutes meat shields alot more durable plus when you roll for the 3+ cover save for the Hellbrute you have a chance to save that zombie that would of been sacrificed since feel no pain isn't a save and can be made against it.

 

Does anyone else imagine that when the Hellbrute makes a succesful cover save that it just grabs the nearest cultist and uses the poor sod to block the shot.

[Hellrender]

 

I tried out the Mayhem pack.

 

I found it rather lacking compared to some DS'ing oblits. With obliterators you always have the tool for the job, more importantly, the option to go twinlinked if you are within range.

To get the Deep Strike formation you pay atleast 300 points, and then they dont do that much. 

 

1 Brute didnt do anything with its MM(we played it so that crazed affected them right after deep strike), but killed a sternguard squad (power scourge), 1 shot a razorback and tied up (and killed) a combat squad of tacts (no power scourge, but opponent kept rolling 1's with his powerfist). The last 1 destroyed a rhino, then got meltad. In total i made 4 IWND rolls (over the 3), to regen a total of 1 HP. 

 

If you want deep striking multi meltas, i rather get Obliterators, as they do the job better. But if you also run a maulerfiend or 2, and maybe some other fast assault units, i can understand the usefulness of having 3 distraction brutes dropping in opening some vehicles, and hopefully tarpitting some shooty stuff with a power scourge. 

 

 

SO with one of the Brute you get back the 300pts investement, and they din't do good?...

 

Sternguards, lets say 5 man squad with at least 2-3 combi weapons and 2 special weapons, ine the 170-180-ish points, razor, usually the TL AC, 85pts and a combat squad TAC so in the 80-ish points, wich make (roughly) in the 340-360pts annihiled by a 100pts model.

 

In my opinion, its not bad at all.

 

The sternguard squad was not a full squad. And it almost (like literally 1 dice roll away) cost me first blood. Now it gave me first blood. The problem i have is not saying that they dont have the killing power. They sure do.

 

But: They cost 300 points, have no scatter migitation and only a multi melta. 1 of my helbrutes mishapped and went back into reserve. 1 missed his multi melta. So, as said, then i prefer, for the cost investment, rather a different unit, obliterators. Yes they work well together (as someone has said), but then you are already running up to 450 points, where as i found that 3 deep striking obliterators will oftenly do more then good enough of  a job. I tested the mayhem pack because i wanted it to work, heck i was one of the more positive ones on the forum here at release. Just saying that it didnt work out for me after testing. If only the scatter migitation was in place, then i would be fine with it. 

 

I do have to say, IF they land, and come all 3 at the same time (so no mishaps) AND you roll on the multi melta decently (sadly its not twinlinked) THEN it is a very good alpha strike. Land, shoot, get shot at, and every helbrute that survies you charges with. Make sure you got a power scourge, because that is worth its way in gold. I found them much more useful as a tarpit against tactical marines (krak grenades are not all that dangerous if you have IWND, but my opponnent also had power fists.. which seems otherwise rare these days). But i dont find them overly useful as a multi melta delivery unit, and consider it more of a bonus when they kill something with it.

[Nehekhare]

as for the marks, there are a lot of rules for that already out there (daemon of x, decimator/contemptor marks, etc.), yet they chose:

 

Dataslate: Helbrutes

Whatever their outward appearance, every Helbrute is the same at its core

[Kilofix]

 

as for the marks, there are a lot of rules for that already out there (daemon of x, decimator/contemptor marks, etc.), yet they chose:

 

Dataslate: Helbrutes

Whatever their outward appearance, every Helbrute is the same at its core

 

Yeah something like a Decimator gets 2DCCW, 2 HF, AV13, Daemon, Daemonic Resilience, Deep Strike, Unholy Vigor, can get IWND with DoN, and do count as Daemon of X, when used with C:D

 

But it costs slightly more than twice the Helbrute, depending on what you equip it with.

 

That said, I think the Helbrute is ok at its cost, else I'd take a Decimator.

 

Oblits, Drakes, etc. may be better - but that's not because Helbrutes are bad for their cost compared to most other things in 40K. It's just that the latter are very good for their cost in most cases.

[the jeske]

Wait . if something shots more and is more resilient for same points and takes up slots which are taken anyway[3 dreads vs 2 serpents] and brings utility on top of it , then the dread surely is a weaker option both compering in and outside of our codex.