Is Roboute more administrator then fighter

[Bocheebs]

I am listening to the unabridged recording of Unremembered Empire and I was surprised to hear how easy Roboute seems to be damaged by three bolter rounds. It seemed immediately out of place and I started thinking about other Primarchs in battle, who, in other novels seem to be able to take a lot more punishment. Where bolter rounds are described as being equivalent to annoying persistent fly's or mosquitos.

 

Roboute is wearing battle plate but with ornamental versions of his 'fierce' power claws so you would expect him to be well protected. Does anyone else find that the different BL writers seem to give different levels of what damage a Primarch can and cant take.

 

Roboute always seems to be easy to get the better of as well - His fight against Kor Phaeron and now a group of 10 legionaries - is he a better administrator then fighter? Should he just leave the ware to his brothers and concentrate on shuffling papers behind the front lines?

 

Maybe I am wrong about the armour he is wearing in this encounter and it is more ceremonial then war ready, I just thought that if terminator armour can turn away bolter rounds then surely a Primarchs armour would have no problems.

[Captain Idaho]

That's just it, he was caught against a firing squad and had ceremonial armour on. Consider that novel for a moment; Guilliman went on to fight Conrad Kurze and was the one to draw blood with a stabbing wound and face slice whilst The Lion struggled.

 

Also consider Guilliman in other novels. He's getting the better of Lorgar, and before long would have killed him were it not for the Red Angel. And then he fights toe to toe with possibly the greatest fighter of all. Russ couldn't do it, Corax fled avoided him and all know he is unstoppable. Only Sanguinus in my view can beat Angron but we haven't proof of that yet.

 

Lastly consider his interactions with others. Guilliman is confident enough to WANT to take on others one on one. He's not the over confident type without very good reason and we see him taking the Lion by the throat, approaching Lorgar deliberately and wanting Night Haunter to himself.

 

Sure Guilliman/Ultramarines haters will want to make out he's weak, but if you actually read the facts he's really not and up there with the best.

 

(Also I'm bumping this to the Heresy forum)

[calgar101]

Bad day at the office for Guilliman so far, none of the Primarch's are slouches when it comes to fighting by virtue of being a Primarch. Roboute makes a good account of himself against Angron/Lorgar and no doubt we will see fights where Guilliman 'owns'. Due to his nature he strives to be the best he can be, no doubt he trains very hard in personal combat. Also remember that during the Scouring Guilliman fights a Daemon Fulgrim and banishes him, which is a great feat in itself.

[MagicMan]

Thats the problem with lots of stories by lots of different people, you get conflicting events.

 

Best to look at how someone is portrayed as a whole, rather than pick out the one time he's shown to be bad/good at something and hold it up as a prime example.

[Legatus]

"Roboute grew quickly, as did his capacity for learning, and within the space of a few years he had mastered everything the wisest men of Macragge could teach him. At the age of six, as was custom for children of Macragge, he was taken from his father and inducted into the Agiselus Barracks where he mastered the art of war with breathtaking speed. His grasp of philosophy, history and science was greater than anyone alive, yet his true genius lay in the field of military organisation. After two years it became farcial for Roboute to remain at the training barracks as he was already the mightiest warrior on Macragge. He could best every one of his instructors in hand to hand combat and none could out-think his battlefield stratagems."

- 3rd Edition Index Astartes Ultramarines

 

In theory, Guilliman should have a leg up in comparison to a lot of the other Primarchs. Where most of them had no formal training and just grew into warfare due to some social struggles on the worlds they grew up on, Guilliman was raised and trained in a very strict, spartan-like martial society. Regrettably, that is not allways picked up.

[Reyner]

Just read Betrayer (is it Betrayer?) where Guilliman fights Lorgar and Angron at the same time. Like a boss. That fight was awesome.

[Captain Idaho]

 

"Roboute grew quickly, as did his capacity for learning, and within the space of a few years he had mastered everything the wisest men of Macragge could teach him. At the age of six, as was custom for children of Macragge, he was taken from his father and inducted into the Agiselus Barracks where he mastered the art of war with breathtaking speed. His grasp of philosophy, history and science was greater than anyone alive, yet his true genius lay in the field of military organisation. After two years it became farcial for Roboute to remain at the training barracks as he was already the mightiest warrior on Macragge. He could best every one of his instructors in hand to hand combat and none could out-think his battlefield stratagems."

- 3rd Edition Index Astartes Ultramarines

In theory, Guilliman should have a leg up in comparison to a lot of the other Primarchs. Where most of them had no formal training and just grew into warfare due to some social struggles on the worlds they grew up on, Guilliman was raised and trained in a very strict, spartan-like martial society. Regrettably, that is not allways picked up.

Good point. Guilliman is a Spartan King.

 

Actually I remember Angel Exterminatus mentioned Guilliman in the same sentence as The Lion and Fulgrim for blade accomplishment. Guilliman was described as the flawless technique one though I'd have to read it again.

[Wade Garrett]

Fulgrim had by now unsheathed his sword and the golden blade drew fresh gasps of astonishment and roars of approval. Fulgrim spun and leapt like a dancer, yet Perturabo saw the fierce skill in his every move, the lethal grace that had made his brother a matchless swordsman, beyond even the technical ability of Guilliman or the enraged purity of Angron.

-Angel Exterminatus p. 93

 

As far as Kor Phaeron, that's not losing a fight, that's cheating reality hax space magick. (See also Mortarion and the Necromancer, the Thousand Sons redshirting Custodians by the bushel on Prospero.)

[Captain Idaho]

The way your enemies fight you is telling to your strengths. The Alpha Legion death squad and Kor Phaeron sorcery indicates fighting Guilliman in a fair fight is not desirable and the preference is dirty tricks.

 

Understandable really when you consider he's a Primarch.

 

Oh and let's not forget the little comments. Throughout the series we hear little tidbits about Guilliman's abilities and even a Space Wolf admits Guilliman would certainly kill his whole squad.

 

And before it's said that Curze was in better shape than Guilliman, you have to consider circumstances. He expected it, he was fully armed and armoured, he was in the dark, he didn't kill all his attackers and he wasn't facing a firing squad but a meled.

 

The subsequent battle where Guilliman slices and stabs him shows us how unequal the battles were.

[Entei]

Every time Guilliman is shown as "weak" it's because he was taken completely by surprise.

 

Instead of thinking of it as "a group of 10 legionnaires nearly killed Guilliman with 3 bolter rounds", think of it as 10(probably captain-rank) Alpha Legion assassins only managed to wound Guilliman lightly in a -complete- surprise attack in the one moment across several months where he let his guard down, after they unloaded a hail of what was probably Banestrike-shells.

 

You have a point though, different writers writes the same characters in different ways. McNeill's Guilliman is not Dan Abnett's Guilliman, etc.

[PassionFruit Power]

i agree with the first post, roboute isn't a fighter apparently he killed one of the alpha twins( stupid imperial nerds believed that Soooooooo stupid)

[Captain Idaho]

How can you agree with that statement without considering the evidence? If he's not a fighter then the implication is neither Curze or the Lion are, and he performed just as well against Angron as Russ, so Russ isn't a fighter either?

[Blindhamster]

As far as Angron is concerned, he's noted as being just about the only one that might be able to beat Sanguinius when plans are being formed (think it's in Betrayer). And Robute holds his own vs both Lorgar and Angron, this means Robute has to be pretty hard core, at least in a straight up fight.

[Legatus]

I guess Guilliman as a fighter is often dismissed because a lot of people mainly remember him being praised for the well organised worlds. And indeed that is what is usually outlined in the Ultramarine sources. Other Primarchs are specifically noted as being fierce combatants, mainly Russ and Angron, and a few others are mentioned as exceptionally skilled, mainly Horus and Sanguinius. Guilliman, in turn, is not generally described in terms of his fighting skill, but more for his grander achievements.

 

However, Guilliman is one of six Primarchs who were actually raised in a warrior culture and trained to fight. Those Primarchs are Jonson, Khan, Russ, Angron, Guilliman and Horus. Perhaps Dorn, but not much is known about his upbringing. The other Primarchs grew up among the people of their homeworlds, often among workers or slaves. Though each of them would eventually fight for his world and accquire his own leadership and combat traits, those Primarchs were not raised from birth to be warriors and generals like the aforementioned six.

 

Edit: I should add Mortarion to the list of Primarchs that were raised for war. I had forgotten that he had been raised by teh Warlord of Barbarus, and had not lived among the lower population that much.

[DarKnight]

I think it's best to just write that scene off as a assassination attempt rather than a legitimate threat on a Primarch's life. I tried not to fanboy out about the scene but I'm not buying and ten Astartes being a threat to a Primarch, regardless of any situation or ceremonial armor. Might land a shot or two, but to actually threaten the life? Nah.

[Wade Garrett]

@Legatus:

 

Mortarion was originally raised to be the heir of the most powerful warlord on Barbarus, with IA: Death Guard noting he possessed an encyclopedic knowledge of killing due to his exhaustive (although narrowly tailored) education as a child.

 

For that matter, Sanguinus was basically raised by tribals on planet Fallout, I imagine his upbringing had more than a few martial elements to it as well.

[Legatus]

Ah, yes, thanks. I think I can add Mortarion to the list of Primarchs with a formal martial upbringing. I had only remembered how the people on his world had been oppressed by the plague overlord, and had somehow thought Mortarion had lived mainly amongst them. But you are right, he was raised for war.

 

I am not so sure about Sanguinius, though. The descriptions of the people of Baal do not strike me as a particularly martial culture. There was constant strife, to be sure, but it was more a desparate struggle for survival, rather than a very formalised or sophisticated martial tradition. The people are described as "scavengers", living among the dusty ruins of a once greater civilisation. They are flocks of Mad Max-esque survivors.

[Blindhamster]

Correct Wade, prior to Sanguinius appearing on Baal, the mutant population is supposed to be something silly like 70% of Baals inhabitants, and the few 'pure' tribes that remain are close to extinction, Sanguinius shows up and basically rallies the human tribes and has fully defeated the mutants prior to the Big E arriving, what's more he's raised the tribes up from their nomadic lifestyles to something a bit more civilized.

 

Sure the mutants aren't armies of space marines, or even warriors with advanced weapons, but then, on most of the worlds the warrior primarchs didn't necessarily fight highly advanced opponents, in most cases they either fought monsters/mutants or other primative tribes/peoples, the only obvious exception I can think of is actually Corax, whom we know fought and defeated a highly advanced slaver culture with tech better than the admech... with slaves..

[Greyall]

It's easy to think of Guilliman as a better administrator than fighter. After all, none of his martial feats (I'd say not even his performance against Lorgar and Angron) surpass the empire he raised and the fact that he probably played the lead role in keeping the Imperium together after the Heresy.

 

If Michaelangelo had BB-King levels of skill with a guitar, would he be a bad guitar player just because he was the supreme painter?

 

Come on, the guy went against Angron and Lorgar with his fists, who the hell wants to get that close to Angron? He obviously enjoys a good spar.

[Legatus]

Almost every Primarch had to fight on his homeworld in some way or another. However, not all of them were raised to be warriors. Corax was raised among slaves, but eventually fought against the overlords of the world. Vulkan was raised as a blacksmith, but fought off alien raiders. Curze grew up alone on the streets of his world, and singlehandedly fought the crime syndicates. They all had some conflicts to test them, and that would establish them as leaders on their world. But that is not the same as being formally raised as a warrior or leader.

[Wade Garrett]

Legatus:

 

I was thinking of the Baalites as being something along the lines of the Apache or Comanche tribe from the North American plains.

 

Their tradition might not be as formal as those of the Greeks, Romans, or Maccragians, but every able bodied male would be expected to possess skills in hunting and war, would have to, if the tribe is to survive.

[Greyall]

Interestingly, Fulgrim, Corax and Curze are consistently regarded as top fighters among the Primarchs. Like every Batman and Punisher story shows us, pragmatism is one hell of a weapon - though that doesn't really apply to Fulgrim.

[Blindhamster]

there is frankly little difference between someone raised in a warrior tradition, and someone that has to fight every single day of their lives against overwhelming odds... except that the latter probably has more first hand experience of actual fighting.

 

Guillimans upbringing (likewise the Lions) would result in better generals as they'd have learned more about tactics, strategy etc, but it certainly wouldn't result in better 'fighters' Where as... Angrons upbringing in a gladiatorial arena results in a similar amount of fighting, likely against similar levels of threats to the ones that had to fight for their very survival (or the survival of their foster families). Only difference there... is that Angron couldn't flee if it was too much - which could be argued to mean he would have become a better warrior.

[Blindhamster]

since when Greyall?

 

Angron is, as far as I know, remarked as being probably the greatest warrior of them in single combat, Sanguinius, Horus and Russ all seem to get bigged up for their martial skill to, I can't remember if the Lion does or not, but I'm sure I've read remarks in at least one book that put him 'up there' and Fulgrim has, as of Angel Exterminatus, been described as a technically brilliant swordsman (and in the same sentence it also notes Guilliman as being a technically gifted swordsman too) however in Scars we also see that the Khan believes he'd be more than a match for Fulgrim...

 

to me it seems like it's probably a web in terms of fighting skill if each primarch faced off against each other.

[Legatus]

Wade Garrett: I double checked the description of the Baalites in the Codex Angels (p. 16) of Death and the 5th Edition Codex Blood Angels (p. 10). It is pretty much the same text, just copied from 2nd Edition, and it just does not strike me as a particularly martial culture, with a heavy emphasis on formal training. Constant struggle and war between tribes, sure, but as I said, more like battles between Mad Max Tribes rather than war between proud warrior cultures. While I would say that Sanguinius has probably seen more fighting than some of the others like Corax or Vulkan, I still wouldn't say that he had received the martial upbringing as the Primarchs I had listed earlier.

Whether one considers being thrown into a world of constant fighting a more effective upbringing than being raised in a martial culture like Fenris, Caliban, Chogoris or Macragge is a different question.