Is Roboute more administrator then fighter

[Greyall]

Not denying your hierarchy, Hamster, I'm just saying those I pointed are also top tier (which is, I admit, a sketchy concept). Let me put in in another way - they're top killers among the Primarchs.

 

The Khan believed he could best Fulgrim precisely because of his greater pragmatism.

[Dark Disciple]

The thing with Guiliman as he's presented is that to him its the same thing. Appraise. Plan. Execute.

One of the best comparisons for him outside of 40k is the RDJr Sherlock Holmes.

The only way to fight him is to cheat, bring something new to the table and kill him first attempt because the second won't be easy and you won't get a third.

 

As for Sanguinius being regarded as the Primarch to beat, that's most likely down to him being in total control of his fury.

The other Primarch's seem to struggle with their emotion more than the ethereal Angel.

With the Primarch's, who are designed for war, a straight up fight is going to be determined by external factors more than X can take Y.

It'll depend on who's strength's the situation suits more. The fight at the end of Scars shows this beautifully.

And, speaking from personal experience, all it takes is a slip to loose a sword fight.

[Blindhamster]

the RDJr Sherlock Holmes comparison for Robute is excellent, I really like that!

 

and yeah, external factors will surely come into it.

 

I'm not sure that Sanguinius is 'the one to beat' just that there is a line where of all the traitors (bar horus) Lorgar believes the only one with a chance to best Sanguinius, is Angron, and that's technically only due to him seeing the future, as Dark says, it could be assumed that external factors played a significant or minor part in the others apparently not having a chance.

 

There is a line somewhere that suggests the only one that could stand toe to toe with horus is sanguinius, but that is neatly proven wrong at the end of it all ;)

[Wade Garrett]

Interestingly, Fulgrim, Corax and Curze are consistently regarded as top fighters among the Primarchs.

What?

 

The First Heretic lists Fulgrim and the Khan as the best with a blade, Betrayer gives Horus, Sanguinus, and Angron as the big dogs, Angel Exterminatus has Roboute, Fulgrim, and Angron...where do Corax and Curze come in?

 

Especially given Corax's actions on Isstvan V.

 

He is brave Lord Corax.

Brave, brave, brave!

When Angron reared his ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled...

He is brave Lord Corax, brave, brave, brave!

[Greyall]

And Unremembered Empire has Curze playing to his strengths and sweeping the floor with everyone and their mothers.

 

You can't go by sheer victory tally, 'Scars' has Mortarion tying with the Khan even though the White Scar gives him a thousand cuts, give or take.

 

Scratch "fighters", replace with "killers" or dangerous. That was the point of the post, to underline how, for all the great generals, leaders and warriors among the Primarchs, the three of them who were tossed in with the populace grew to become some of the most dangerous.

 

Horus didn't want to get his hands dirty with the remaining traitors at Isstvan III...that makes him a coward by that line of thought. Unless 'strategically sound' has gained a new meaning.

[Blindhamster]

honestly still not seeing it Greyall, by the definition you're using, Russ and Angron should certainly make your list at the very least (they definitely get their hands 'dirty') Hell, if you go with the established background for late heresy, Sanguinius holds the eternity gate ALONE against the Daemons and Traitors. I just don't see where your stance really comes from on those three, as Wade says, there are a few points in the books where the 'best' primarchs (in terms of as combatants) are listed, and only in one of them does Fulgrim get a nod, neither Curze or Corax ever do.

 

in UE, Curze doesn't sweep the floor with everyone and their mothers... he fails to even land a hit on a lone Imperial Fist Captain (admittedly the most bad-ass of all captains IMO), he also certainly doesn't 'beat' the Lion and Robute, Sure he kills a bunch of random marines and innocent people, but the same can be said of many of the primarchs, not just the short list you provided.

 

If you want to go on killers, the only type of killer worth noting would be Primarch Killers... which would be Fulgrim (1 for you!) and Horus, none of the others manage to kill a primarch through the entire series, despite numerous match ups. If you include Greater Daemons then you could add the Lion and Sanguinius to it (any others solo'd a greater daemon yet? can't remember off hand)

[Legatus]

Eh, I'd say Russ has technically killed another Primarch. Just so happened that that Primarch had just majored in "demon" and did not actually die.

 

Fulgrim has "killed" two Primarchs (one still hangs on, though).

 

Guilliman may have killed two Primarchs, but neither is confirmed (one being demon Fulgrim, which of course also would not be final, the other being Alpharius).

 

Horus killed one, of course.

 

 

 

I do vaguely remember Corax being mentioned in terms of "being the only other Primarch who stood a chance against X in the duels" or something like that. But it was probably a book I did not read, and only remember from it coming up in the forums.

[Honda]

I think another context needs to be considered.

 

Some of the Primarchs were raised to to be soldiers (e.g. Guilliman) and some grew up and became warriors. Both can be nasty in fights. Depending on the environment they are fighting in, one may be more effective than another. Reverse the circumstances and the exact opposite could happen.

 

We'll never be able to determine who was the best. There is no way to objectively determine that.

 

The only thing we do have to work back from is the record of kills, and I might be bolder and say "confirmed" kills.

 

My two yen.

[Greyall]

I'd forgotten how Primarch 'tiers' are a sensitive and subjective matter...

 

I'm saying the three Primarchs who had a 'civilian' upbringing grew up to become three of the most dangerous due to said upbringing injecting a good dose of pragmatism and going for the throat. It's also the reason why both Corax and Curze aren't shy of 'evasive action'.

 

A warrior upbringing makes for great martial skill, a military one for great generals, and a mix makes, well, a mix. Growing up trying to survive among the lowest of the society tends to bring up effectiveness and efficiency, not to mention a great survival (and killing) instinct.

 

Don't list the individual feats we've all read (especially if they're wrong, Curze gets to hit the Imperial Fist once he gets distracted), I'm talking about their history and reputation, the bigger picture.

 

Edit: Honda said it best. A life made of survival doesn't make for a less dangerous warrior/leader.

[MordentHex]

the RDJr Sherlock Holmes comparison for Robute is excellent, I really like that!

and yeah, external factors will surely come into it.

I'm not sure that Sanguinius is 'the one to beat' just that there is a line where of all the traitors (bar horus) Lorgar believes the only one with a chance to best Sanguinius, is Angron, and that's technically only due to him seeing the future, as Dark says, it could be assumed that external factors played a significant or minor part in the others apparently not having a chance.

There is a line somewhere that suggests the only one that could stand toe to toe with horus is sanguinius, but that is neatly proven wrong at the end of it all

Horus was infused with all the chaos gods. He was juicing. Sanguinius for different reasons does set the bar for personal combat skills. Robute fought two primarchs back to back. That takes "balls of adamantium." Despite losing to Angron, he did give Lorgar a sound thrashing and he lived through the whole debacle. I would rate him as one of the top fighters, not the best, but definitely not the worst. Equal to the lion or russ in his own fighting style.

[Blindhamster]

Legatus, I think the thing you're thinking of is when Lorgar is told that if he fights Corax he will surely die? only thing like that that I can think of...

 

Greyall, my apologies about Alexander, I could have sworn he comes out of the fight unharmed though...

 

Out of interest, what makes the strive for survival so much more impressive for Corax/Curze vs say... Russ or even Vulkan or Angron for that matter?

 

I'm inclined to agree about Robute MordentHex, he does pretty well in the fights we've seen him in, I imagine if he ends up in more he'll do well in those too.

[Wade Garrett]

In the short story "Raven's Flight" Corax's own internal monologue states that if he fights Angron, the World Eater will kill him.

 

Huh. Maybe he just forgot that growing up on the mean streets of Deliverance made him the best killer of all the Primarchs because REASONS.

[Honda]

 

In the short story "Raven's Flight" Corax's own internal monologue states that if he fights Angron, the World Eater will kill him.

 

Was the author G. Thorpe? If so, then counsel will move to have that statement stricken from the record. :P

[Legatus]

Blindhamster: Nah, I think it was specifically a description of how Corax was one of few who could take on a different Primarch (Angron?) in combat. But maybe I am misremembering that.

 

 

 

Horus was infused with all the chaos gods.

 

Ah, good point. Likewise was Fulgrim in "demon form" when killing the two Primarchs. So if we disregard Chaos help, that makes Russ the killer number one. Unless Guilliman did in fact kill one (in which case it is a tie) or even two (in which case he takes the lead) of the Primarchs.

[Seahawk]

Pretty sure Roboute is a good fighter. As mentioned, he only loses a fight when the enemy has brought an unknown to the table: scrapcode, Chaos blessings, unknown elements, etc. He gave Angron a good thrashing (and technically beat him, though it was with an army at his back) while at the same time giving Lorgar the what-for. He killed at least one primarch as well.

 

Heck, in the biggest surprise of his life, he was sucked out into space, helmetless, and still proceeded to punch off heads out on the hull for a while, all while feeling immensely hurt and betrayed. The icy cold of space and the depths of his rage would have done him in before any number of legionaries. 

 

Anyway, all this debate is fairly pointless anyway. Every primarch is a great fighter in different aspects. 

[Wade Garrett]

Pretty sure Roboute is a good fighter. As mentioned, he only loses a fight when the enemy has brought an unknown to the table: scrapcode, Chaos blessings, unknown elements, etc. He gave Angron a good thrashing (and technically beat him, though it was with an army at his back)

Roboute was lying helpless at Angron's feet and only escaped with his life because Lorgar decided to troll Angron so hard it broke reality and made him a daemon prince.

 

Under what POSSIBLE definition of the phrase is that considered "technically beating him"?

[Seahawk]

His army would have killed Angron, just like the Wolves the previous time it happened.

[Legatus]

Weren't the Ultramarines being overrun left, right and center?

[Greyall]

@Hamster: it doesn't. As you've stated, the three I've listed aren't "the best". It's just that their early years were devoid of military training or imposed hierarchy, so they might've ended up being lackluster. They haven't, that's the point.

 

 

In the short story "Raven's Flight" Corax's own internal monologue states that if he fights Angron, the World Eater will kill him.

Huh. Maybe he just forgot that growing up on the mean streets of Deliverance made him the best killer of all the Primarchs because REASONS.

 

You probably think, this being the internet, that attitude will still grant you a response. But, mea culpa, I treat the Internet fora as I do a coffee table, which means I'll do the same as I would were we in person: look down upon the witty star trying to get attention...and sigh.

 

Exiting the thread now, don't want to derail this any further.

[Seahawk]

The group that he was crawling to weren't. That's what Lorgar was pointing out to Angron, that though he may best the primarch in single combat, he'd be killed by everyone else.

[Wade Garrett]

Weren't the Ultramarines being overrun left, right and center?

Indeed.

 

Nuceria wasn't the XIII's finest hour no matter how you slice it.

 

(That would come later, in the Scouring, when they put Ultramarine boots to Word Bearer/World Eater/Night Lord/etc backsides so vehemently the Traitors decided running away to live in Hell was the smart money option)

[MordentHex]

World Eaters don't run away! We charge in a different direction!

[Captain Idaho]

The group that he was crawling to weren't. That's what Lorgar was pointing out to Angron, that though he may best the primarch in single combat, he'd be killed by everyone else.

Yes it's important to realise the battle zone was vast and Guilliman's warriors were doing better than elsewhere.

 

Guilliman was acting out of character though and went into action against 2 Legions and superior star ships out numbered and outgunned. His gamble was the Imperator Titan. He basically rushed into combat out of thoughts of vengeance.

 

And although not counted in the book and only mentioned in passing, an entire Galaxia class Legion vessel died whilst another was crippled, whilst half a traitor Titan Legion was destroyed (though they are boosted with a captured Imperator so it's kind of even). So even in military blunder Guilliman presented a very real threat. He did almost kill Lorgar but he was saved by Angron.

 

Although the Ultramarines may have had the opportunity to kill Angron I don't remember it being implied?

[Wade Garrett]

Well, to kill Angron at that point and time the Ultramarines would have had to fight their way past Lorgar, Vorias's coven, and Lhorke the Best Contemptor Dreadnaught ever. So I don't think so, it seems to me that Seahawk is mixing up Nuceria with the Night of the Wolf, where Angron was indeed at the mercy of the VI.

 

And I didn't mean to imply the battle was a cakewalk for the Red Team, Fidelitas Lex went down with all hands, Conqueror was left more scrap metal than ship, but I thought the Legio Audax came through it all right.

 

Idaho, are you sure the 50% losses they suffered weren't at Armatura?

[Seahawk]

Hrm. I thought it was Lorgar's Lesson #2 to Angron about looking at the bigger picture. Just read it last week, so something may have gotten a little mixed.

 

The overall point was that Guilliman is a great fighter, that's all.