Is Roboute more administrator then fighter

[Blindhamster]

@Greyall, fair enough, I can kind of see where you're coming from, although to me I'd not have described the following as having had military upbringings:

 

Curze, Corax, Fulgrim as you suggested, but also Horus, Khan, Angron, Sanguinius, Vulkan, Ferrus Mannus, Lorgar, Magnus even Mortarion and Russ...

 

the only ones that have implied or documented truly military upbringings are Dorn, Lion and Robute.... it could be argued that Horus does too, purely because he's found still as a child unlike the rest.

 

the reason I suggest the above is... warring gangs in lower level hives are not much different to warring tribes on most worlds, at least in their depiction in the HH, likewise warring clans are not much different... which covers Curze (gang warfare), Horus (gang warfare), Russ (clan warfare), Ferrus Mannus (clan warfare), Sanguinius (tribal warfare, i guess he might belong in the list below though?) and the Khan (tribal warfare).

 

Fighting against some kind of oppression is not necessarily going to generate any more skill at anything other than fighting vs the above group either, which covers Corax (oppressive overlords), Angron (oppressive overlords), Mortarion (oppressive regime I think?) and Vulkan (oppressive dark eldar overlords/exploding planet)

 

This leaves the following with relatively non violent upbringings: Fulgrin, Lorgar, Magnus and even these had fighting in their upbringing.

 

FYI I've not included Alpharius or Peterabo as I couldn't remember their upbringings... Alpharius is basically a space pirate when he's found though I think?

[helterskelter]

From what I glean I think perturabo did some kind of king killing

[Blindhamster]

possibly falls into the overthrowing an oppressive regime type then?

[Legatus]

 

to me I'd not have described the following as having had military upbringings:

 

Curze, Corax, Fulgrim as you suggested, but also Horus, Khan, Angron, Sanguinius, Vulkan, Ferrus Mannus, Lorgar, Magnus even Mortarion and Russ...

 

the only ones that have implied or documented truly military upbringings are Dorn, Lion and Robute.... it could be argued that Horus does too, purely because he's found still as a child unlike the rest.

 

My bad with Horus. I thought I remembered his homeworld as being described as a warrior culture. Turns out his homeworld wasn't really described much at all in the Index Astartes article. I should have checked.

 

Some of the others, though: I personally did not look at "military" upbringings in the sense of learning modern military tactics, but in a "martial" upbringing, being trained forms of single and group combat, even if using primitive weaponry. Fenris definitely has a martial culture. Barbarus might even have modern weaponry, though I don't think the Death Guard Index Astartes goes into much detail. Chogoris has a warrior culture not unlike Fenris, and Khan is heralded as a great warlord and strategist by it's people.

Angron was not really raised to fight wars, but he had perhaps the greatest range of champions and beasts as opponts in bloody one on one combat out of all the Primarchs. His upbringing was heavily focused on duelling, less on warfare as would have been the case with the other "martial" Primarchs.

[Captain Idaho]

Idaho, are you sure the 50% losses they suffered weren't at Armatura?

Not 100% but I'm pretty sure they lost a good 12 Warhounds just battling the powering up Imperator.

 

That's not to say anything about the other Warhounds that may have been lost in the battle. Wasn't there a Warlord squadron involved too?

[Wade Garrett]

You're correct about them taking a beating going up against the Corinthian.

 

The only thing I can find about other Titans is a mention of there being heavier engines fighting with the Ultramarines, but Audax outnumbering them and the situation playing to their favored battlefield role, using wolfpack tactics to bring down larger enemies.

[Captain Idaho]

I seem to remember them having around 30 Warhounds but I'm going to have to dig out the book.

 

Tis a great read anyway. :)

[Bocheebs]

My intention was not to be a Guilliman hater, it was more to point out the discrepnecies in how Primarchs seem to be portrayed in battle.

Maybe i just had too high expectations of Roboute and was a little disapointed. Yes he does kick arse in other Primarch Vs Primarch fights, maybe thats where the expectation of him dominating arose.

 

That's just it, he was caught against a firing squad and had ceremonial armour on. Consider that novel for a moment; Guilliman went on to fight Conrad Kurze and was the one to draw blood with a stabbing wound and face slice whilst The Lion struggled.

Sure Guilliman/Ultramarines haters will want to make out he's weak, but if you actually read the facts he's really not and up there with the best.

(Also I'm bumping this to the Heresy forum)

[Bocheebs]

If you look through all the stories where the Primarchs are involved they seem all have 'off days' where they just don’t seem to be into the fight. Yet on others
they are unstoppable war machines who are described as a savage dance of death and blood as they move across the battle field.

 

Whether or not they have received military academy training, rose up form slavery, lead a gang/warband or uprising in their youth they are all described as being
natural killers, fighters and tacticians who have no parallel (on their home worlds). This leads to the question do they indeed require formal training to
be the best or were they just genetically made with the knowledge and ability to be the best and so it doesn’t matter what their upbringing did for them martially.
Their upbringing only molded their characters.

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Index Adtartes doesn't really matter when contradicted directly by the FW books in regards to upbringing. Primarchs are not around in 40k, so the 40k narrative takes a backseat to the direct 'as it happened' accounts from the HH books. In the instance of Mortarion, he is mentioned in being trained in strategy and tactics by his foster father.

[Captain Idaho]

Regards to the usual "who's da bestest" I think it's fair to say a definitive pecking order is hard to establish if not impossible, simply because that'stthe nature of fighting. You have good and bad days, there are variables that may mess with your abilities and fighting strengths, you might find a particular style or strength of an opponent overbearing yet another who you can consistently beat doesn't work up a sweat against the same opponent...

 

We can just establish trends and tiers and likely results that lead us to deduce a Primarch's place in the Pantheon.

 

My intention was not to be a Guilliman hater, it was more to point out the discrepnecies in how Primarchs seem to be portrayed in battle.

Sorry I wasn't accusing you directly, rather pointing out popular opinion of those who normally hate Guilliman and the Ultramarines.

 

Oddly enough we haven't seen them yet.

[SFH]

Was Roboute Guilliman a good fighter? Yes. But there is something we all need to remember about the Primarchs and the Legiones Astartes: they were made for different fights. Mortarion outright tells Fulgrim, Sanguinius, and Jaghatai Khan this in Scars, when Sanguinius tells them about the Army placing odds on the Primarchs fights. Horus and Guilliman were made for tactically flexible fights, Dorn and Perturabo were made for sieges, Mortarion and Vulkan were made for endurance fights, Jaghatai was made for fast attack, Sanguinius and Angron were made for close combat, etc. So the question we need to remember is not if they're good fighters, but are they fighting the right battles.

 

Weren't the Ultramarines being overrun left, right and center?

Indeed.

Nuceria wasn't the XIII's finest hour no matter how you slice it.

(That would come later, in the Scouring, when they put Ultramarine boots to Word Bearer/World Eater/Night Lord/etc backsides so vehemently the Traitors decided running away to live in Hell was the smart money option)

...Okay, that's just awesome, no matter how you phrase it.

[Bocheebs]

No Offence taken, just wanted to try and show the main point  of the original post. I may have put a bit of a spin on the subject but that was just to get attention to the post.

 

 

My intention was not to be a Guilliman hater, it was more to point out the discrepnecies in how Primarchs seem to be portrayed in battle.

 

 

Sorry I wasn't accusing you directly, rather pointing out popular opinion of those who normally hate Guilliman and the Ultramarines.

 

 

[Wade Garrett]

I don't know about the whole "The Primarchs were made for different fights" notion.

 

Some of them possssed innate traits and abilities that pre disposed them to fight a certain way (Mortarion's resilience, Magnus's psyker powers) but others were shaped by their homeworlds and upbringing.

 

For instance, Angron is such a close combat monster because of the Butcher's Nails increasing his speed, strength, and pain tolerance.

 

Perturabo learned siege warfare and fortification on Olympia, but he chafed in the role of Siege Master, and being repeatedly used as such sent him into the arms of the Chaos Gods. One would think that when creating a dedicated siege Primarch, you'd make one that actually..if not enjoyed besiegement, at least didn't react to endless sieges by becoming a seething mass of spite and bitterness.

[Legatus]

 

Index Adtartes doesn't really matter when contradicted directly by the FW books in regards to upbringing. Primarchs are not around in 40k, so the 40k narrative takes a backseat to the direct 'as it happened' accounts from the HH books. In the instance of Mortarion, he is mentioned in being trained in strategy and tactics by his foster father.

 

That's what the Index Astartes article says as well. I simply had Mortarion stored under "Plague planet; on the side of the oppressed population", and didn't go back to check the exact description.

[drooling blood]

Maybe, but hes no where near even the middle of the pack.

He beat up probably the second worst fighter in Lorgar, crawled away on his hands and knees from Angron, I cant remember if that was before or after the war hound tried to step on him.

But he (possibly) killed a Primach you say. Alpharius who could pass for a regular marine. Which by all acounts would make him a midget

He did nick Curze though,

Thats some good fighting Roboute.

[fission]

Except for circumstances of a fight we will only know the skills of Roboute whenForgeworld will technically describe him in a book.

 

For the moment just remember the known primarchlevel in CloseCombat (and I dont even mention their unique ability)

 

9 : Angron

8 : Horus ,Fulgrim ,Curze

7 : Mortarion , Ferrus , Vulkan

6 : Lorgar

[Legatus]

 

Maybe,  but hes no where near even the middle of the pack.

 

IIRC he was described as among the top five fighters in Know No Fear. It was a subjective opinion, of course. But then which description of the Primarch's prowess isn't? We only have subjective opinion of Corax, Sanguinius, or even Angron.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, we do have some objective evidence that PURELY AS A FIGHTER (not as a leader or a functioning human being) Angron > Russ and Roboute.

 

So if coming into second to Angron means you need to go sit behind a desk then I guess Russ is more of an administrator than a fighter as well.

[Captain Idaho]

Second to Angron is nothing to be ashamed of.

 

But you need to look at how others regard Guilliman. The Lion saw him as an equal. Perturobo thinks of him when comparing the best swordsmen of the brotherhood.

[drooling blood]

I cant remember who said the Angron > Russ and Roboute thing, but it sounds Ultramarineish.

Seeing as most seem to think Sanguinius is probably the only one that could take Angron i think that list is a bit flawed. Now that would be the fight of the heresy. Toe to toe, Nails vs black rage

Better than Fulgrim or the Khan. Theyre called the best swordsmen. Well not so much the Khan he doesnt get called much at all

If you get two people. One fights part time, the other full time. Who would your money be on?

Same reason Ultras > Word Bearers.

Like i said hes bitch slapped a bigger book worm than himself, and (possibly) strangled a midget

Oh and the Lion is a idiot.

[Wade Garrett]

A Sanguinus/Angron fight would not, in fact; be Butcher's Nails vs Black Rage.

 

Namely because the Black Rage is a condition afflicting the post Heresy Blood Angels, wherein they become lost in intense hallucinations reliving their Primarch's death at Horus's hands.

 

It is therefore a tad unlikely that Sanguinus himself suffered from said condition.

[Blindhamster]

Sanguinius is supposed to have the fury and rage when in combat, hes just supposed to be fully in control of it. Hes also aware of the potential for the red thirst/black rage as they are potentials within him.

 

As someone said earlier, the thing that actually sets the angel apart from many of his brothers is that hes supposed to have good control over his emotions (generally)

 

But as wade says, it wouldnt really be nails vs the rage.

[drooling blood]

It comes from his blood and with the way the warp works. yeah its possible. Why do you think hes worried of going the lost legion way. Maybe he can just put a cap on the bottle better than others. I know people in IRL that do the same

You could ask the Wolves on Signus if they were attacked by red thirsters or black ragers or both. oh no you cant. But you can say they were suffering the thirst, when seen to do so, resulted in the rage. I love the BA, played from 1st to 4th eds. but i maybe im just a heritic that doesnt quite believe the sanctioned story that the IOM is told.

 

But thats the bit you picked.

 

Because im lazy, who said the Angron > Russ, Roboute thing?

And im just going to throw the almost got strangled himself by Kor Phaeron. A old guy who really shouldnt have been given the seed

[Legatus]

 

Because im lazy, who said the Angron > Russ, Roboute thing?

 

Wade Garrett? Because we have a novel where Angron beats up Russ, and one where Angron beats up Guilliman. (Might have been the same novel. Betrayer?)

 

All it means is that Angron is stronger than both Russ and Guilliman. It is not the order of the top three fighters or anything. Sanguinius could also be stronger than Russ, Horus could also be stronger than Angron. The equation only speaks of the relation of Angron to Russ and Guilliman.

 

 

 

Like i said hes bitch slapped a bigger book worm than himself, and (possibly) strangled a midget

 

Earlier you said that Guilliman was "no where near the middle of the pack". So who would you estimate to be a better fighter than the roman-spartan general-king? The architect? The other architect? The crime lord? The engineer? The wizard? the preacher? The blacksmith? The slave leader? The "midget"? That is half of the pack right there. Which one can make a serious claim to fighting skill?

 

In fact, is there any Primarch other than Angron who has anything to show in terms of his skill? Warped up Horus beats Sanguinius, Warped up Fulgrim beats Ferrus Manus and nicks Guilliman. Corax can beat up Lorgar, but is that saying much? According to what criteria would one put Guilliman at the lower end of the spectrum? As I pointed out earlier, he was one of only six (maybe seven) Primarchs that was actually raised to fight.

 

Plus, the two Primarchs he potentially killed were not Alpharius and Lorgar. They were Alpharius and (Daemon-)Fulgrim. After the fight against "giant four armed serpent" Fulgrim where Guilliman is cut at the neck, when all the smoke cleared, Fulgrim was nowhere to be found. Maybe he just wanted to give Guilliman a small scratch and then just left the battlefield. Another explanation would be that Guilliman managed to send Fulgrim back to the warp, even if it cost him.