Is Roboute more administrator then fighter

[Blindhamster]

drooling blood...

 

the black rage as we know it is the blood angels legionary having visions of the fight between Horus and Sanguinius, but with the legionary taking the place of Sanguinius in the fight.

 

They are supposed to be essentially lost in genetic memory, and unable to control the well of anger/rage within.

 

 

The Red thirst is supposed to make a blood angel become a blood thirsty monster bent on killing and drinking vitae, they are supposed to become crazed by this blood lust.

 

the Effect that is seen in Fear to Tread is indeed meant to be a precursor to the Black Rage, and they feel it because Sanguinius and the Blood Angels are supposed to have an unusually strong empathic link, he essentially feels when his 'sons' die, and they feel his pain.

 

The original version of Signus is quite specific in that the Angels all succumb to a version of the Black Rage and then proceed to wipe out everything on the planet (Sanguinius wakes up after they've done this and is supposed to be horrified at what his sons had become).

 

However, The Angel himself has never been depicted anywhere as being anything but in control, he is described as being controlled fury in combat, when he was still on Baal, but thats about it.

 

also... what is IOM?

 

 

 

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Back on Track...

 

I believe Robute has so far had about as many defeats as wins, having said that, they're always from sucker punches (exception being Angron obviously)

[fission]

+1 with Legatus

[Toxichobbit]

also... what is IOM?

Imperium Of Man.

[karden00]

This is what Ultramarines are to *some* of the Imperium. 

Is Roboute a better strategist than fighter? Hell yes. And Im proud of it. He is a primarch, one of 18 in the galaxy. He has a legion of 250,000 fighting men, spread throughout the galaxy, and they are not known for losing. Can Roby-G be expected to be at the forefront of all of his battles? (read 'his' as all the battles that the Ultrmarines are engaged in) 
Hells no.

Primarchs were created to lead, not to fight. If they are any good at fighting, all the better, but as the Night of the Wolf proved, being a primarch is not primarily about being a good fighter. Its about leading, its  about teaching your legion how to win. 

 

Guilliman didnt win all of his fights, (by the way, can we think of ANYONE in 40k who did? Not even the Big E...) but he sure as hell won all his wars. 
Thats what being a primarch was all about. 

[Captain Idaho]

Except he was a good fighter.

[DarKnight]

I think we all try to rank the Primarchs due to our own allegiances and preferences, but I feel like it's safe to say (maybe excepting Horus since he is bar none the best Primarch according to the lore) that any Primarch can defeat any other Primarch depending on the circumstances. Really no need to argue the point. You're doing a disservice to Guilliman by thinking a mind of his caliber would put president on logistics over being able to actually fight, single combat or no.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

I've never been a fan of Guilliman but when I read the passage about the Alpha Legion assassination attempt I drew the opposite conclusion from the original poster. He was in his residence in his ceremonial armour rather than his war plate expecting to catch up with an old friend after performing formal duties. He was as close to kicking back and relaxing on the sofa in his pjs after a day at work as a Primarch gets when ten highly skilled (I'm assuming the Alphas sent some of their best for such a challenging mission) warriors with guns and blades ambushed him and he killed them all using improvised weapons/weapons of opportunity.

 

His speciality is strategic and logistical command but when it comes down to it he can make murder as only a Primarch can.

[Captain Idaho]

People like to assume only the Space Wolves can have a super hit squad, but all Legions can have evil killers.

 

Being THE assassination and covert naugties of the Legions, you can bet your bolter they have death squads who've killed many a difficult mark.

[Daniel the Viking]

Based on Primarchs, the next 40k army start will probably be the Ultramarines.

[DarKnight]

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but do you guys really consider "ceremonial" Primarch armor to be of a lesser quality than their battle armor? I know the difference is in the names but I can't imagine a Primarch that wasn't wearing robes or something to be armored in anything less than the best.

[Kais Klip]

I don’t understand why Guilliman is getting all this hate for a surprise firecracker party gone wrong. It’s a squad of ten year olds opening up fire with 9MMs on some special forces grunt operative  while he’s at his desk filing away his paperwork on the phone with his girlfriend. The fact that he survived at all is commendable, and as the novel said if one of those rounds had torn into his head it would be game over. 

 

Hand him the initiative and sure, I’d be laughing if he couldn’t pick off our Somalian State Army one by one dropping from the rafters, but the situation at hand was ten bolters opening up on a completely unready and unprepared target; primarchs aren’t slabs of ceramite over bone as their stats would lead you to believe, their greatest strength is in their skill of war.

 

Otherwise humanity’s champions would be green.   

[lobukia]

First of all, hello... first post, very active on DakkaAngryDakka, but lurked here for awhile.

 

In Know No Fear, Abnett flat out says that Guilliman is "at worst" one of the top five in close combat.  Its the same author, so no different books by different blokes problem here.

 

BTW, if you math hammer it out, a "standard" primarch will have a very hard time against 10 SM veterans who get the drop on him.... however, if you let him loot bodies as he goes, he'll win.  That's what happens in TURE, the following is taken from one of my DakkaDakka threads

 

 

So, in Unremembered Empire, Guilliman is caught in partial ceremonial plate and unarmed against a 10 man Alpha marine Killteam. He lives, barely, so I'm a little curious how the mathhammer would play out on this.

Assumptions for this case... treating the Alpha marines as 2 5 man Veteran Tactical Squads from the HH book. They get to go first, 1 has a power sword. This is consistent with the load out they had in the book. I'm giving them the first turn too. I'm taking furious charge as both squad's SR and we're just going to ignore challenges (as they didn't seem to factor into the fight). I'm also giving them preferred enemy, as that seems a reasonable boost for this "to kill a primarch" kill team

For Guilliman, I'm giving him a "standard" stat line for a primarch

WS7, BS6, S6, T6, W6, I6, A5, LD 10... but no special equipment and just a 4+ save (seems to fit what the armour would have been, shoulder pads, chest-plate, greaves, but no helmet, only one glove, does not seem to have been power armour).

I'd give Guilliman cover saves, but doesn't really matter. I'm also not playing out the fight exactly like it happened, just seeing, given the basic set up, if it should have been as close a fight as it seems.

So, first round, the squads open up... that's 5 rapid fire bolters and 5 pistol shots (charging into CC), 15 shots, 13 hits, 1.3 wounds (so we'll say 1... Guilliman down to 5). One of the squads charges... Guilliman gets hit 5 attacks, 3 hit, doing 1 wound (locked in combat with 4). Those 4 get their 4 attacks each, 16 attacks, 9 hits, 1.9 wounds (Guilliman down to 3). Guilliman fails IWND, on their turn he attacks again, killing 1 (locked with 3). They've lost their charge bonus and FC. .6 wounds, but we'll give Guilliman a break since I rounded up to 2 wounds last time. His turn, kills one (locked with 2) and fails IWND, and then on their turn kills one (locked with 1), then on his turn kills the last one. He's due to take a wound, put also passes IWND and has to face the last squad with 3 wounds left.

So to stop the process... he'll pass one more IWND, but they have a PS and can shoot before charging. Basically the book was right on. This one comes right down to wire. The book lets Guilliman loot bodies as he goes, so that's the only reason he should live.

Well done Abnett and FW... book follows rules 

[DarKnight]

I don’t understand why Guilliman is getting all this hate for a surprise firecracker party gone wrong. It’s a squad of ten year olds opening up fire with 9MMs on some special forces grunt operative  while he’s at his desk filing away his paperwork on the phone with his girlfriend. The fact that he survived at all is commendable, and as the novel said if one of those rounds had torn into his head it would be game over. 

 

Hand him the initiative and sure, I’d be laughing if he couldn’t pick off our Somalian State Army one by one dropping from the rafters, but the situation at hand was ten bolters opening up on a completely unready and unprepared target; primarchs aren’t slabs of ceramite over bone as their stats would lead you to believe, their greatest strength is in their skill of war.

 

Otherwise humanity’s champions would be green.   

LOVE the metaphor, even though I don't think it's accurate. I don't begrudge you that you think it's closer than I do though. 

[King Jackal]

Guilliman is an educated fighter, he knows the technique without being flashy and would 'outthink' his opponent in a duel - analysing movement, patterns, strengths and weaknesses. This is why (in my opinion) he matches Angron - who is probably the most predictable fighter out of the primarchs. I think the Lion or Sangui would make for a better duel with Guilliman.

 

This isn't to take anything away from Angron though who would be peerless in sheer carnage (kill ratio) on a battlefield.

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but do you guys really consider "ceremonial" Primarch armor to be of a lesser quality than their battle armor? I know the difference is in the names but I can't imagine a Primarch that wasn't wearing robes or something to be armored in anything less than the best.

 

 

Why would you assume ceremonial armour is not just that; ceremonial?

 

We have limited information. We're only told his armour is ceremonial. So we know it's not practical or battle ready armour and is just for looks. Unless we're told otherwise how can you assume it's decent quality armour?

 

The book is very clear on the matter Guilliman was considered unarmed and unarmoured.

 

Guilliman is an educated fighter, he knows the technique without being flashy and would 'outthink' his opponent in a duel - analysing movement, patterns, strengths and weaknesses. This is why (in my opinion) he matches Angron - who is probably the most predictable fighter out of the primarchs. I think the Lion or Sangui would make for a better duel with Guilliman.

This isn't to take anything away from Angron though who would be peerless in sheer carnage (kill ratio) on a battlefield.

Whilst I agree Guilliman would be a technical master, he flat out loses to Angron.

[King Jackal]

With all due respect, that's a broad argument. Do you mean 1 on 1 in a fair arena both equipped with optimal loadouts Angron squishes him?

[Captain Idaho]

Have you read Betrayer?

 

It illustrates perfectly why war is an imperfect science. It's not like 40K where you count up the points and have at it, it's a case of getting assets to achieve a mission.

 

Given sufficient assets or just sufficient time Guilliman is pretty much unstoppable in war, but beating Angron in a fight? Nah.

[Wade Garrett]

With all due respect, that's a broad argument. Do you mean 1 on 1 in a fair arena both equipped with optimal loadouts Angron squishes him?

That's more or less what happened on Nuceria.

 

Actually, I tell a lie. Given that Nuceria was power weapons against chainblades, Angron took him with Roboute having an edge equipment wise.

[King Jackal]

Wherein Guilliman is uncharacteristically impatient and emotional? Yes

 

Have you read Betrayer?

It illustrates perfectly why war is an imperfect science. It's not like 40K where you count up the points and have at it, it's a case of getting assets to achieve a mission.

Given sufficient assets or just sufficient time Guilliman is pretty much unstoppable in war, but beating Angron in a fight? Nah.

Why wouldn't Guilliman stack advantages or assets in his favour to achieve the win..

Take Betrayer off the table, Guilliman absolutely has the potential to take Angron in a fight if he imposes his strategy against his opponent.

[lobukia]

 

With all due respect, that's a broad argument. Do you mean 1 on 1 in a fair arena both equipped with optimal loadouts Angron squishes him?

That's more or less what happened on Nuceria.

 

Actually, I tell a lie. Given that Nuceria was power weapons against chainblades, Angron took him with Roboute having an edge equipment wise.

 

I don't think Gorefather and Gorechild really qualify as a disadvantage in close combat.  At all.  Last I checked, 2v1 is a edge, equipment and personnel wise.

 

EDIT: Statwise, GF and GC wound on the same roll, give AngryOn more attacks (most likely), and force an invuln.  There is no advantage at all in Guilliman's equipment, as it is described.  

[Wade Garrett]

Wherein Guilliman is uncharacteristically impatient and emotional? Yes

So emotional that the fight narration specifically notes he is fighting with clinical precision and refusing to fall into a beserker rage....

[Captain Idaho]

True he was, but I don't think it particularly ruined his fighting prowess. It spoilt his strategic mind if anything.

[King Jackal]

Emotional enough to put himself in an illogical position.

 

And that's the point, in Betrayer he found himself in Angron's "domain" because it spoiled his strategic mind

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

 

With all due respect, that's a broad argument. Do you mean 1 on 1 in a fair arena both equipped with optimal loadouts Angron squishes him?

That's more or less what happened on Nuceria.

 

Actually, I tell a lie. Given that Nuceria was power weapons against chainblades, Angron took him with Roboute having an edge equipment wise.

I don't think Gorefather and Gorechild really qualify as a disadvantage in close combat. At all. Last I checked, 2v1 is a edge, equipment and personnel wise.

And if Angron was wielding Gorefather and Gorechild in that fight, this would be relevant.

 

But he lost them on Armatura, so it isn't.

 

Also, 2 Chainswords vs 2 Powerfists isn't 2v1.

[Blindhamster]

nice math there, although I'd assume they were a seeker squad (or the alpha legion special version of). Which means they'd be hitting on 2s, with rerolls. I'd also assume they had access to the special ammo in that case too, and again get rerolls to wound I think?

 

Basically a squad of guys like that, vs a to all intents and purposes unarmed and less well armoured primarch? yeah they stand a good chance vs all but the toughest