Is Roboute more administrator then fighter

[DarKnight]

A fight is a fight man, we can't have it in a sanitized environment, Primarchs aren't even made to fight in those kind of arenas, it means nothing. Guilliman can still kick the crap out of the majority of the galaxy without beating Angron in this one particular event.

[karden00]

 

First of all, hello... first post, very active on DakkaAngryDakka, but lurked here for awhile.

 

In Know No Fear, Abnett flat out says that Guilliman is "at worst" one of the top five in close combat.  Its the same author, so no different books by different blokes problem here.

 

BTW, if you math hammer it out, a "standard" primarch will have a very hard time against 10 SM veterans who get the drop on him.... however, if you let him loot bodies as he goes, he'll win.  That's what happens in TURE, the following is taken from one of my DakkaDakka threads

 

 

So, in Unremembered Empire, Guilliman is caught in partial ceremonial plate and unarmed against a 10 man Alpha marine Killteam. He lives, barely, so I'm a little curious how the mathhammer would play out on this.

 

Assumptions for this case... treating the Alpha marines as 2 5 man Veteran Tactical Squads from the HH book. They get to go first, 1 has a power sword. This is consistent with the load out they had in the book. I'm giving them the first turn too. I'm taking furious charge as both squad's SR and we're just going to ignore challenges (as they didn't seem to factor into the fight). I'm also giving them preferred enemy, as that seems a reasonable boost for this "to kill a primarch" kill team

 

For Guilliman, I'm giving him a "standard" stat line for a primarch

 

WS7, BS6, S6, T6, W6, I6, A5, LD 10... but no special equipment and just a 4+ save (seems to fit what the armour would have been, shoulder pads, chest-plate, greaves, but no helmet, only one glove, does not seem to have been power armour).

 

I'd give Guilliman cover saves, but doesn't really matter. I'm also not playing out the fight exactly like it happened, just seeing, given the basic set up, if it should have been as close a fight as it seems.

 

So, first round, the squads open up... that's 5 rapid fire bolters and 5 pistol shots (charging into CC), 15 shots, 13 hits, 1.3 wounds (so we'll say 1... Guilliman down to 5). One of the squads charges... Guilliman gets hit 5 attacks, 3 hit, doing 1 wound (locked in combat with 4). Those 4 get their 4 attacks each, 16 attacks, 9 hits, 1.9 wounds (Guilliman down to 3). Guilliman fails IWND, on their turn he attacks again, killing 1 (locked with 3). They've lost their charge bonus and FC. .6 wounds, but we'll give Guilliman a break since I rounded up to 2 wounds last time. His turn, kills one (locked with 2) and fails IWND, and then on their turn kills one (locked with 1), then on his turn kills the last one. He's due to take a wound, put also passes IWND and has to face the last squad with 3 wounds left.

 

So to stop the process... he'll pass one more IWND, but they have a PS and can shoot before charging. Basically the book was right on. This one comes right down to wire. The book lets Guilliman loot bodies as he goes, so that's the only reason he should live.

 

Well done Abnett and FW... book follows rules 

 

Not quite true. In KNF, one of Guilliman's men, might be Thiel, iirc, is the voice thinking this. Subtle but Very significant difference. 

 

I have to take issue with your stance on Guilliman vs Angron, Cap'n. 

 

Forgetting about the stories that have been written so far, if we may, I sometimes like to think of primarchs as embodiments of what they represent. Guilliman is a tactical and strategic genius. He knows how to win wars and fights (though I firmly think he knows how to win wars maybe somewhat better than winning fights) and he does this by cool, calculated and informed thoughts. Now its silly for anyone to say in any fight that cool, calculated thoughts always trump rage and aggression (I dont think it is right at all to say that Angron is all about blind rage, though perhaps as the nails took their toll, this more and more became the case) but I dont think its right to say that someone who is known to keep their cool goes down every time to someone known for berserk rage. Think of the descriptions of Sanguinius. Seems to me the perfect symbiosis of Guilliman and Angron. Controlled fury, isnt that how they described him? Now there is a primarch who I could see coming out on top the majority of times.

 

Regarding Guilliman vs Alphas...Dont worry so much guys! Prior to this, we had arguably the most epic primarch scene delivered in the HH series. Guilliman voided, for not sure how long (the "mark" time counters in KNF might actually provide an answer to this) coming to the aid of his boys in a void action, Without A Helmet!!!! screaming soundless rage into nothingness, while punching unsuspecting Word Bearers heads clean off. In spaaaaaaaace! Frankly, ever since then, I have been willing to put up with almost anything. 

[lobukia]

 

 

 stuff

And if Angron was wielding Gorefather and Gorechild in that fight, this would be relevant.

 

But he lost them on Armatura, so it isn't.

 

Also, 2 Chainswords vs 2 Powerfists isn't 2v1.

 

touche  good point.  However, after Guilliman runs a marathon, Angron beats him at another marathon, not quite as impressive as just beating him.

[MagicMan]

With each scratch of his quill upon the ledger, another Traitor fell to Guilliman's meticulous planning.

Each flourish of penmanship, and each accurately calculated tactical projection slew a score of foes, till the red armoured bodies did pile up around Guilliman's mighty desk. A desk which smelt of rich mahogany.

Finally, with the enemy no more, Guilliman stood and raised his ink-stained fingers to the sky; roaring his triumph over his foes.

Never did a Primarch more embody death and battle, than the Lord of the XIII.

And so Guilliman dealt with all traitors!

[karden00]

With each scratch of his quill upon the ledger, another Traitor fell to Guilliman's meticulous planning.

Each flourish of penmanship, and each accurately calculated tactical projection slew a score of foes, till the red armoured bodies did pile up around Guilliman's mighty desk. A desk which smelt of rich mahogany.

Finally, with the enemy no more, Guilliman stood and raised his ink-stained fingers to the sky; roaring his triumph over his foes.

Never did a Primarch more embody death and battle, than the Lord of the XIII.

And so Guilliman dealt with all traitors!

Oh my goodness...I think I've found a new sig...

[DarKnight]

Guilliman definitely gets the X-Men Cyclops treatment, while the Russ' etc of the world are Wolverine

[Blood Angel Scout]

With regard to the fight between Angron and Guiliman in Betrayer, context has to be provided in so much as Guiliman has been fighting Lorgar, putting him down though also while head caved in/split skull, when Angron bursts out of the ranks of Ultra's to take up the fight. Also, the emotional state of Angron following the trip home, probably he's at the purest of his rage/Nail's and added to his status of one of two capable of defeating the Angel, then Guiliman does well to last as he does...think this is alluded to bit about not being able to counter/defend Angron's blows of a broken chainsword but don't have to hand to quote.....

 

Personally, from what has been written in the series, would say Guiliman would be fairly considered to be highly competent in combat but then again all primarchs are aren't they? Sure Lorgar wasn't, now?

 

It's all about context as not sure how many primarch vs primarch-who-has-already-fought-another-primarch scenes we will see or even then, how much have the traitors been boosted by the warp or the condition of the loyalists at the time cause, unless there is new battles to be explored in the HH, aren't the next PvP match ups at the Siege? So reckon it will be Sanguinius vs Angron who is actually the daemon (my theory for retconned as to blur the truth/supress Chaos post heresy) Khan vs Mortarion round 2 for the space port then up to the Venegful Spirit for Horus vs Sang/Emp.....not sure if Dorn vs Perturabo will be done though always possible.

 

Post nearly over cause as a sidenote...

 

Currently, the Angel has been described with having a halo like effect from his rage, though after the events of Fear to Tread i.e. the pain of Horus's betrayal leading to lost sons and brothers, foresight of the sacrifice then think he'll let full fury unleash the end when he's struck down which will be the trigger for the Black Rage, as the  lost BA before his death being animalistic, blood hungry, as the condition exists within Sanguinius, the red and black ropes, whereas post Heresy it's channelled to the death moments....

 

Thoughts?

[b1soul]

I can't really see Angron, Russ, Sanguinius, Horus, Khan, Lion, Curze, Fulgrim, Manus, Vulkan, etc. being "sent to the hospital" (if you will) by 10 Astartes armed with bolters 

 

The only primarch I could see this happening to, aside from Bobby, is emo whiny Lorgar before he finds his purpose in life. 

[Wade Garrett]

Horus was sent to death's door by a mortal man with a sword, Lion got his ticket punched by one old man semi Astartes, and Vulkan was taken down by getting stuck in the chest with a salad fork.

[Hyaenidae]

I can't really see Angron, Russ, Sanguinius, Horus, Khan, Lion, Curze, Fulgrim, Manus, Vulkan, etc. being "sent to the hospital" (if you will) by 10 Astartes armed with bolters 

Guilliman also put those 10 fully armoured astartes, carrying bolters which most likely had their nasty penetrator rounds loaded, in the grave while caught off guard, unarmoured, and barehanded, in an enclosed space with no room to maneuver.

 

The only primarch I could see this happening to, aside from Bobby, is emo whiny Lorgar before he finds his purpose in life. 

 

Lorgar, while still lost, was soaked in loyal blood on Istvaan. He wasn't whining when he faced Corax, though he knew he didn't have a chance in hell of beating him.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Forgetting about the stories that have been written so far, if we may, I sometimes like to think of primarchs as embodiments of what they represent. Guilliman is a tactical and strategic genius. He knows how to win wars and fights (though I firmly think he knows how to win wars maybe somewhat better than winning fights) and he does this by cool, calculated and informed thoughts. Now its silly for anyone to say in any fight that cool, calculated thoughts always trump rage and aggression (I dont think it is right at all to say that Angron is all about blind rage, though perhaps as the nails took their toll, this more and more became the case) but I dont think its right to say that someone who is known to keep their cool goes down every time to someone known for berserk rage.

There's a reason why there are essentially no berzerkers left in this world, but a ton of really successful militaries full of cool, calculating, professional soldiers.

 

 

 

I think the problem is that we far too often try to think of the primarchs as being "balanced". As if they all have strengths and weaknesses. But it's really not true. Some primarchs are just really good (Horus, Guilliman, Sanguinius) and others are fairly mediocre (Lorgar, Corax, Alpharius).  It's important to remember that for the most part, all of the traitors fell for a reason, and that was because they were weak where their loyal brothers were strong. And that's not to mean across the board, because certainly the traitors all had strengths. But you have to look at the 40K universe's ties to mythology and classical ideals. 

 

Guilliman is the embodiement of the Roman virtues. Duty, Courage, Foresight, etc. That's why he didn't fall. Chaos had nothing to offer him that he didn't already have. This isn't to say he's flawless, because he's not. But he was The Good Son. Most of the other loyal primarchs embodied those classical virtues, whereas the traitors nearly all exhibit the eight "evil thoughts" (what became the Seven Deadly Sins for those fans of David Fincher films). 

 

So it is obvious from the start that the primarchs aren't equal. Nine remained loyal, while the other nine were fooled by the poisoned promises of Chaos and fell from grace. Some of the primarchs grew up in fairly advantageous positions (Guilliman, Horus, Dorn, Lionel), and others did not (Angron, Russ, Conrad Kurtz). That's why Guilliman and Horus rose to positions of power and responsibility in the Imperium, and Angron, Russ and Batman became mindless butchers. Being a great general didn't make Horus or Lionel a poor warrior, so it's fairly silly to automatically assume that Guilliman would be weak and incapable simply because his most lauded strength was in strategy. 

 

 

 

Wherein Guilliman is uncharacteristically impatient and emotional? Yes

So emotional that the fight narration specifically notes he is fighting with clinical precision and refusing to fall into a beserker rage....

 

I think it's more a reference to the fact that Guilliman should never have been there in the first place. Scraping together a fleet to chase after a superior force out of blind rage is pretty uncharacteristic for him. Kinda why I felt like Betrayer would have been much better suited as a novella where Lorgar just sees that Angron is losing his grip, and takes him to his homeworld and lets him loose before channeling that to make him a daemon prince. There was no need for the Ultramarines in that story at all. It ended up just being a vehicle for another fan service primarch fight where the loser gets dragged off to safely fight another day.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, I wouldn't say Nuceria was Rob attacking a superior force head on, given how the across-the-board Traitor reaction to appearance of the Ultramarine fleet is "Oh Dark Gods we're all going to DIE!"

 

Not "Ha ha ha, the fool Guilliman and his tiny fleet. This will be a cakewalk." And there's the fact that of the three Traitor vessels, Fidelitas Lex goes down in flames, Conqueror is left more scrap heap than functioning spaceship, and the kingship supposedly lost thousands of crew (unless I am mixing that last one up with Armatura).

[DarKnight]

If the Emperor titan lives, its a Ultramarine victory on Nuceria.

[Kais Klip]

 

There was no need for the Ultramarines in that story at all. It ended up just being a vehicle for another fan service primarch fight where the loser gets dragged off to safely fight another day.

But... the courage & honour speech :_( ? The whole Nuceria chapter was there to set the scene for that speech, for Angron to proclaim his reasons for turning and thereby developing the character away from "rage-roid hulk" compromised from birth by one of your seven sins and into a freedom-yearning critic of the Emperor, scarred by loss that at the same time eroded sentimental blind loyalty into logical loyalty. Angron realised that he was compromised, broken and ruined by the nails and all that was left for him to do was dance to the tyrant's tune of grimdark Aristocracy until the Heresy rolled about (Angron anthology).

 

In the modern democratic-loving world, Angron's ideal would be the most well heralded in my opinion. I'm not saying I wouldn't want to inhabit Guilliman's empire, Fulgrim's perfect city or Magnus' Tizka (?), but then I'm not a fan of the modern democratic ideal.

 

It was the sole chapters of night of the wolf and Nuceria that lifted Angron into the league of the most well-developed characters in the heresy series.

 

You just have to grit your teeth through the bolter-porn that keeps the series afloat (Oh Unrememered Empire how you dashed my hopes), and pick out the golden nuggets when they come about.

[Tenebris]

By the Dark Gods how I love that scene. Alpha Legion hit squad unloading their bolters on Papa Smurf, and while they were destined to die every bolt that exploded in the body of that penpusher was a blessing for my mind. Really, I do not argue, Guilliman is a hell of a fighter, he stood his ground against the Night Haunter, he fought against Lorgar and Angron and he showed time and again that when he commits to battle he can be deadly.

 

But Papa Smurf being sent to hospital by ten "lowly" astartes was priceless. As I have said, every bolt piercing the flesh of XIII legion is a wonderful thing to behold, especially after almost twenty years of plot armor protecting them, and every shot ripping the flesh of Papa Smurf himself earned Black Library a book buyer. 

[Veteran Sergeant]

How have the Ultramarines had plot armor? They've lost plenty of times.

 

Methinks you have a bad case of misdirected Ultrahate. The prescription is reading the actual fluff and not /tg.