Storm Raven Plasma Cannon vs. Flyers

[netminder69]

Typically, according to the rules, you cannot fire template weapons at flyers. So what happens when you have the PC on a Storm Raven and are shooting Skyfire in a turn? Can you fire it at a flyer or not?

[Morollan]

Nope. Doesn't matter if it's Skyfire or not. You cannot use blast weapons against flyers. Page 81

 

 

Template, Blast and large Blast weapons cannot hit flyers in Zoom mode

[Komrk]

You couldn't shoot it at the flyer as was said above. As for firing it at another target, you could PotMS it and fire it at a Skimmer.

[Fibonacci]

You couldn't shoot it at the flyer as was said above. As for firing it at another target, you could PotMS it and fire it at a Skimmer.

Which opens the next debate about snap shots and PotMS ....

[Komrk]

 

You

couldn't shoot it at the flyer as was said above. As for firing it at

another target, you could PotMS it and fire it at a Skimmer.

Which opens the next debate about snap shots and PotMS ....

 

 

He wouldn't snapshot against a skimmer, that's why I only said skimmer rather than "something else". Skyfire still hits normally against skimmers for some reason.

 

But I do want to know where it stands on Snap Shots and PotMS

[Jolemai]

It the above example, it would only be a snap shot against a ground target. Against a skimmer it would be a full BS shot. If the weapon in question was not a blast weapon, it could instead be fired at a second flyer at full BS.

 

Correct?

[Komrk]

Correct

[netminder69]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Although you couldn't snap shot the PC because it's a blast weapon, right?

[Komrk]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Although you couldn't snap shot the PC because it's a blast weapon, right?

Correct but it wouldn't snapshot against a skimmer

[alex567]

Power of the machine spirit:

 

"In a turn which the vehicle neither moved flat out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at it's full ballistic skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting."

 

You may fire a gun at an alternate target at full balistic.

So to resolve the above issue, you could fire the plasma cannon at a ground target, then power of the machine spirit the other weapon at the flyer.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

So to resolve the above issue, you could fire the plasma cannon at a ground target, then power of the machine spirit the other weapon at the flyer.         

 

If you do that, the weapon shooting the Flier does so as a Snap Shot (As you're not using Skyfire this Phase).

 

And the full BS for a Snap Shot is BS1.

[Raeven]

Probably the best and most concise explanation I have seen for the confusion people get over snap shot. Nice, gl.

[Acebaur]

 

So to resolve the above issue, you could fire the plasma cannon at a ground target, then power of the machine spirit the other weapon at the flyer.         

 

If you do that, the weapon shooting the Flier does so as a Snap Shot (As you're not using Skyfire this Phase).

 

And the full BS for a Snap Shot is BS1.

 

 

You could instead fire the PC at the ground target using PotMS correct? and shoot your other weapon with full BS and skyfire

[Kristoff]

You could instead fire the PC at the ground target using PotMS correct? and shoot your other weapon with full BS and skyfire

That's not very clear, as POTMS is still subject to the normal rules of shooting, and Flyers usually don't have Interceptor to allow normal BS at ground targets when under the influence of Skyfire.

[Acebaur]

 

You could instead fire the PC at the ground target using PotMS correct? and shoot your other weapon with full BS and skyfire

That's not very clear, as POTMS is still subject to the normal rules of shooting, and Flyers usually don't have Interceptor to allow normal BS at ground targets when under the influence of Skyfire.

 

Yeah but you can PotMS a LR's weapon after moving 12" and shoot at normal BS, why could you not do the same shooting at ground targets?  And why would the rule even menton shooting the addition weapon at full BS if you couldn't do that.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Because the rule for Flyers states that they get to choose whether or not they have Skyfire each Shooting phase, and that if they do have Skyfire, all their weapons will have it (pg. 81).

 

This means that the plasma cannon's profile now includes Skyfire, which means it may only fire snap shots at non-Skimmer, non-Flyer, non-Flying MC targets. Because it is a template weapon, it can't snap shot other things at all.

 

EDIT: And of those three things, two can't be hit by template weapons at all.

[Acebaur]

Because the rule for Flyers states that they get to choose whether or not they have Skyfire each Shooting phase, and that if they do have Skyfire, all their weapons will have it (pg. 81).

 

This means that the plasma cannon's profile now includes Skyfire, which means it may only fire snap shots at non-Skimmer, non-Flyer, non-Flying MC targets. Because it is a template weapon, it can't snap shot other things at all.

 

EDIT: And of those three things, two can't be hit by template weapons at all.

 

That still doesn't explain why a PotMS doesn't override the snap shots rule

[Kristoff]

 

 

 

 

You could instead fire the PC at the ground target using PotMS correct? and shoot your other weapon with full BS and skyfire

That's not very clear, as POTMS is still subject to the normal rules of shooting, and Flyers usually don't have Interceptor to allow normal BS at ground targets when under the influence of Skyfire.

 

 

 

Yeah but you can PotMS a LR's weapon after moving 12" and shoot at normal BS, why could you not do the same shooting at ground targets?  And why would the rule even menton shooting the addition weapon at full BS if you couldn't do that.

 

 

Because the rule doesn't allow for that.

[Disruptor_fe404]

 

Because the rule for Flyers states that they get to choose whether or not they have Skyfire each Shooting phase, and that if they do have Skyfire, all their weapons will have it (pg. 81).

 

This means that the plasma cannon's profile now includes Skyfire, which means it may only fire snap shots at non-Skimmer, non-Flyer, non-Flying MC targets. Because it is a template weapon, it can't snap shot other things at all.

 

EDIT: And of those three things, two can't be hit by template weapons at all.

 

That still doesn't explain why a PotMS doesn't override the snap shots rule

 

The property that's preventing the plasma cannon from shooting isn't the Ballistic Skill 1, it's the fact that the shot being fired is a Snap Shot.

 

In theory, even if the Storm Raven could somehow Snap Shot at Ballistic Skill 4, it still couldn't fire the plasma cannon at a non-Skimmer/non-Flyer/non-Flying MC because of the plasma cannon being a template weapon.

 

And as per the BRB FAQ, nothing can modify the BS1 of a Snap Shot anyway (exception: Tau markerlights in Overwatch). It's the same reason we can't use Signums to override Snap Shots.

[Dam13n]

As far as the original question is concerned, I think a quoted rule might be of some help:

 

1: Flying monstrous creatures page 49 - Hard to Hit - "Blast and Large Blast Weapons cannot hit swooping models"

2: Flyers page 81 - Hard to Hit - "Blast and Large Blast Weapons cannot hit flyers in zoom mode"

 

Whether it's a snap shot or not, a Plasma Cannon cannot ever hit a Flyer that is in zoom mode, or a Swooping Monstrous Creature because it's a Blast weapon.

 

Now as far as this extended discussion is concerned, Skyfire states:

 

"A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using it's normal ballistic skill when shooting at flyers, flying monstrous creatures or skimmers. Unless it also has the interceptor special rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets."  Page 42

 

So if a flyer chooses to use skyfire and wishes to fire a blast/template weapon then it will have to be at a skimmer.

- it can't hit a flyer due to the Hard to Hit rule above.

- It cannot shoot at any other ground targets (but skimmers) because such shots are going to be snap shots.

(Page 33 - Blast weapons may not be fired as snap shots).

 

The weapon is using PotMS, so may fire at a different target at full BS (Page 40). Yet that weapon still has the skyfire rule, because all the flyers shots have the skyfire rule if you choose that mode of fire.

 

So it's the skyfire rule and the blast rule that combined disallow you to fire the blast weapon in this case. PotMS does nothing as it does not over-rule the snap-shot. All PotMS does is increase the number of shots that a vehicle can normally shoot at full BS by 1. In this case that "Full BS" is a snap-shot, so therefore 1, and it may not be used to fire a blast/template weapon.

 

Essentially when you come to fire the PotMS weapon you still have to go through the following steps:

- I'm using PotMS to allow me to shoot one of my weapons at a separate target at "full BS"

- So I'm choosing to fire a Plasma Cannon which has Skyfire, because that's the mode I chose at the start of the shooting phase, (but not interceptor) at a non-skimmer ground unit.

- The Skyfire special rule however causes me to have to fire that shot as a snap shot.  (PotMS does not allow me to over-rule this - Permissive Rule-set)

- The Blast special rule tells me this is not legal.  

- I therefore cannot perform that action.

 

Done.

[Disruptor_fe404]

That's not being discussed any more though (because we've gone a bit off-topic!).

 

Unless I've misunderstood it, the subject being discussed is whether or not PotMS allows you to fire the plasma cannon at a non-Flyer/non-Flying MC/non-Skimmer even if you chose to have the Storm Raven's weapons gain Skyfire that turn.

[Dam13n]

I was mid flow, just saved the post as I had to walk away from the computer.  Continuing to edit my above post...

 

And done.

[Gentlemanloser]

I did so enjoy the PotMS versus Smoke discussion of older editions. ;)

 

 

Probably the best and most concise explanation I have seen for the confusion people get over snap shot. Nice, gl.

 

TYVM!

 

/bow

[Acebaur]

Thank you Dam13n, for actually taking the time to explain why it doesn't work instead of simply saying "because it doesn't".  That makes sense now why PotMS doesn't affect Skyfire but does override shooting snap shots because of movement. 

[Seahawk]

Well, now I don't know why it overrides Snap Shots on the land raider. Do explain, please.