DA assault sgt gear

[darkangel1030]

Hey all, I am hoping y'all could give me advice for my assault squad vet sgt. Do you think its better to go with a powerfist, or give him melta bombs, and then a power weapon(prolly an axe)? I'm leaning towards the fist , even though I will not gain the extra attack, plus its my fav option :) . Melta bomb is I1 as well, but is cheaper and allows me totake a power axe and bolt pistol for +1 attack. Any personal preference or experience towards one? Take care.

[march10k]

I would go with ZERO UPGRADES.  Except maybe meltabombs.  Why?  Because of challenges.  You have no invulnerable save, so you're SKROOD anyway.  Why waste points?  You are also a jumper, meaning you get to pick your fights.  You have no business in a fair fight, you're faster than anyone else.  You should be assaulting shooters and shooting assaulters.  A assault  sergeant doesn't need gear if he's pounding on a devastator squad!

[puck]

As with all gear advice, community recommendations will largely depend on what the intended target of the squad is, but I'm leaning towards axe/bomb. The axe, bomb, and fist are all I1 so this guy is going last no matter what. The fist will let you hit at S8 in CC (presumably for instant death shots), but how many multiwound T4 models is this squad going to be facing that your 1W srg is going to survive to swing at? The bomb will let you hit tanks as good or better than a fist (with the armorbane rule and S8) while also giving you the points to take the axe/pistol giving you more attacks and at AP2 to boot.

 

Though honestly unless there's a really good reason to need AP2 killing power on that srg I would consider a straight power sword or maul letting you use that extra attack at your regular initiative step which gives you more of a chance to actually land a blow than going last with the fist or axe. Note the maul would let you still instant death T3 models, which if you're playing DAs and drop a rad grenade on a MEQ target first would let you cut down normally T4 models at your initiative step. The down side being its only AP4.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Definately combi flamer is the squad is carrying flamers also.  Other than that I wouldn't bother too much with upgrades. Maybe a power sword to strike soft targets at I. The way I see it, if you're assaulting something that requires a fist or AP2 you shouldn't be asssaulting it.

[shabbadoo]

I usually build my Assault Squads to do one of two things:

 

1. Kill infantry: Vet. Sgt. with power weapon & meltabombs; squad with 2 flamers.  Some prefer an added combi-flamer, but I prefer to go a bit cheaper and take the meltabombs to make the unit able to threaten any choice vehicle targets they may come across as well.  This tends to be useful, considering the predilection of people to run armored units.  I would definitely add the combi-flamer if the unit were to have a Drop Pod.

 

2. Kill heavy infantry/vehicles:  Vet. Sgt. with powerfist, combi-melta; squad with 2 plasma pistols.  Meltabombs go through armor better, but you only get one chance to hit (a power fist gets three attacks on the charge).  However, I would definitely swap out the power fist for a plasma pistol, meltabombs, and a power axe if the unit were to have a Drop Pod.

 

I have one extra Sgt. model kitted out with a plasma pistol, but he is seldom used.  For a shooting unit like this, the Sergeant doesn't need to be a veteran, and I am not keen on giving him any other upgrades (except something very cheap, like meltabombs), as he might very well kill himself with his own pistol.

 

Overall, the main advice is this- take weapons on your Sergeants (and they should *always* be Veteran Sergeants for that +1 Attack if they have any sort of upgraded close combat weapon) that compliment the special weapons in their squad.  Assault Squads should fulfill a particular role in your overall strategy.  To that end, it is perfectly fine to take an Assault Squad with NO upgrades of any kind, and simply rely on the superior skills an equipment to see them have an impact on the game (though it is hard to resist taking a couple of super cheap flamers, if you have the points to do so).

[Seleucus]

"2. Kill heavy infantry/vehicles:  Vet. Sgt. with powerfist; squad with 2 melta-guns.  Meltabombs go through armor better, but you only get one chance to hit (a power fist gets three attacks on the charge).  However, I would definitely swap out the power fist for a combi-melta, meltabombs, and a power axe if the unit were to have a Drop Pod."

 

Shabbado, DA Assault sqds can't take melta-guns - just flamers or plasma pistols' otherwise, I agree with your appraisal.

[march10k]

I do like the combi-flamer idea, and I'm not totally against a power sword or power maul.  Probably the maul, S6 will pen a lot of vehicles, and gives you more chances than the single grenade or meltabomb attack.

[Dark_Master]

I run my assault squad with dual flamers so my Sgt has a combi Flamer and a power sword to strike at initiative.

 

If I have the points then a vet upgrade too

 

DM

[shabbadoo]

Oops! I mean plasma pistols, not meltaguns on #2.

 

Also, flamers do work decently well on heavy infantry too (i.e the "Exactly how many saves can you make?" principle).

[Syphid]

Sgt with combi flamer, or Vet Sgt with power weapon.  Jump Pack unit with flamers, or packless unit with drop pod and plasma pistols.

[march10k]

I'm not a fan of the drop pod.  You gain a tiny bit of certainty in terms of the timing and safety of your deepstrike, and in exchange you give up hammer of wrath and, well, mobility.  You're basically nonscoring tactical marines that traded their firepower for +1A.  Yuck!

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I agree with March On this one. I understand the idea of having the Drop Pod essentially free but if you are going to take the Fast Attack spot you might as well use the Assault Squad for what they are for. Jumping over terrain and on top of buildings etc make them good for clearing out those scouts on top of ruins, bunkers etc. If you are using a Drop Pod you might as well get the Tac Squad as they will have better range and firepower and Still can have a flamer and combi flamer for the template if you really want and you still get scoring. I like using an Assault squad with my Drop Pod force as they are good as Quick Reaction Force to provide mobility a majority of my army will lack.

DoC

[FlamingDeth]

+1 on leaving the pods to tactical marines. An extra flamer in exchange for a pile of bolt gun shots isn't quite worth it. But then if you want some first goodness in a pod, there's the oft overlooked option of the dread with TL heavy flamers and an extra heavy flamer in the CCW, which isn't that expensive and takes up an elite slot instead of fast attack.

 

On topic, my two assault sergeants in my battle company have nougt but a melta bomb for one, and full on plasma pistol and power weapon in the other. The first sees far more use since outside of apocalypse assault marines are used almost exclusively as wound soaks for company masters.

[Master Toddius]

I play 40k all over Southern California and I have never seen a Dark Angel Player take assault squads. I guess i'm missing out somehow. Maybe I should run a squad and see if they're a better take than RW or DW or Vets.

[shabbadoo]

People usually take the flashy units instead.  You won't see many Blood Angels players take Tactical Squads or Devastator Squads (or even basic Assault Squads in some cases)  for the same reason.  They take Reclusiarchs and various Special Characters, Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, Furioso Dreadnoughts, Death Company Dreadnoughts, Librarian Dreadnoughts, Baal Predators, and Veteran Assault Squads.  Oh, and they sometimes take Assault Squads because they are Troops.  Unless they have Dante, in which case they take Sanguinary Guard as Troops.  Most armies have a way of avoiding taking the more generic units, but that doesn't mean that the generic units are garbage.

 

Also, I have to question Drop Podding a Tactical Squad rather than an Assault Squad.  That unit is going to drop into a close quarters storm of poo.  Tactical Squads are not made for drawn out, close-quarters engagements.  The Tactical Squad will shoot once decently...but then become only somewhat of a nuisance rather than the threat that an Assault Squad is.  The Assault Squad's extra special weapon, and +1 Attack per model (well, for 7 of them), can be a telling factor.  And that is for the same cost:

 

Tactical Squad: Vet. Sgt. with combi-flamer, power weapon, meltabombs; 1 x flamer, 8 x boltguns.

Drop Pod: stormbolter.

------------------------------

220 pts.

 

Assault Squad:  Vet. Sgt. with combi-flamer, power weapon, meltabombs; 2 x flamer, 7 x bolt pistol & close combat weapon.

Drop Pod: stormbolter.

-------------------------------

220 pts.

 

Tactical Squads are better used as static units that hold deployment zone objectives (and perhaps advance on mid-field objectives), while Assault Squads are better used to shove down you opponent's throat to contest objectives and get Linebreaker (the Drop Pods themselves help in this too).  Company Veterans surely do the job better, as they can alpha strike better and still have +1 Attack even with just a bolt pistol, but setting them up to do so well costs about 100 points more, and they take up a valuable Elites slot as well.

[march10k]

I play 40k all over Southern California and I have never seen a Dark Angel Player take assault squads. I guess i'm missing out somehow. Maybe I should run a squad and see if they're a better take than RW or DW or Vets.

 

I guess I never ran into you there...I would say that they're better than vets.  Being better than RW or DW would be like being better than DoA or overcharged engines...nothing is better than a codex's trademark.  If that's your measuring stick, everything in our codex that isn't RW or DW is HORRIBLE!!!

[Master Toddius]

I'm not sure if saying DW or RW or nothing is the crux of what I was saying. I just think that a codex usually has unique units and rules sets that are normally more powerful than nilla units and exploiting them thematically and strategically is usually the best way to go. I suppose Assault squads in some instances can be better than vets, and having grim resolve in an assault squad does give them a certain uniqueness - I just haven't seen much in the way of math hammer to make them really stand out as a better choice. 

But again, maybe I should look into coming up with some lists involving assault squads again. I have 10 of them I painted 14 years ago still taking up space in a model case somewhere ;)

[march10k]

Mathhammer doesn't tell the full story because even when it does incorporate points efficiency (which is good for jumpers, flat out horrible for vets), it doesn't account for the impact of casualties and it doesn't account for mobility.  Vets have the same toughness and wounds and armor as jumpers for a point per model more, but that's before you start loading them down with  kit that doubles their cost.  They hit like a freight train, but you pay for the nose for it, and at the end of the day, they die as easily as any other marine.  It's precisely the same stigma that used to attach to 25 point assault marines.  Well, they now cost 2/3 of what they used to without being nerfed in the process, but people still treat them as overcosted and "fragile for the points."  But with a pair of flamers they cost the same as a tactical squad does with plas/plas/combi (the way I do mine), yet they deepstrike, move a ton faster, and potentially have 5 S4 beats per model on the charge (one base, second weapon, charge, hammer, pistol), that's pretty disgusting for 17 points. 

[Gillyfish]

I used to use assault squads a lot in previous editions, back when our sergeants could be upgraded to be stubborn. They were pretty potent for a number of reasons - the sergeant's power fist was good at whittling down squads and the attacks on the charge from the other marines were often enough to bring down bigger units. The old sweeping advance rules meant that they could take out a whole flank if your opponent was careful with their positioning.

 

With the stubborn sergeant they were also good at tar-pitting certain squads, leaving the rest of your force unmolested, plus their speed meant you could change the point of attack, if you wished.

 

They took a dip in fourth-fifth edition once the stubborn sergeant was removed and the sweeping advance rules changed. They might be worth a try now though for grim resolve, the reduction in points and the fact that few people use them, so they won't be expecting them. Overwatch fire might be an issue, but they should still do some damage.

 

I think it might be interesting to see how they do alongside a Ravenwing or Deathwing force, as they can bring lots of extra cc attacks at initiative, something Deathwing and Ravenwing often lack, leaving them vulnerable to being tar-pitted.

 

Also, don't underestimate the force multiplier of an attached jump-pack chappie and the lovely re-rolls he allows for.

 

I see asault squads in this edition as a support unit, in the sense that they aren't the heaviest hitters, but can add to your attack. So arm your squad and sergeant to complement the rest of your army by equipping them to take on opponents that the rest of your force might struggle with.

[shabbadoo]

Mathhammer doesn't tell the full story because even when it does incorporate points efficiency (which is good for jumpers, flat out horrible for vets), it doesn't account for the impact of casualties and it doesn't account for mobility.  Vets have the same toughness and wounds and armor as jumpers for a point per model more, but that's before you start loading them down with  kit that doubles their cost.  They hit like a freight train, but you pay for the nose for it, and at the end of the day, they die as easily as any other marine.  It's precisely the same stigma that used to attach to 25 point assault marines.  Well, they now cost 2/3 of what they used to without being nerfed in the process, but people still treat them as overcosted and "fragile for the points."  But with a pair of flamers they cost the same as a tactical squad does with plas/plas/combi (the way I do mine), yet they deepstrike, move a ton faster, and potentially have 5 S4 beats per model on the charge (one base, second weapon, charge, hammer, pistol), that's pretty disgusting for 17 points. 

^ That.

[HJL]

Why dont people like a single claw? It does more avg damage to marines and has a better chance against tougher opponents.

[Pyro X]

Isn't 1 claw the same cost as a power sword and does the same thing? Only paired let's you reroll. Unless it has rend(its early and I don't use claws in RW)

[shabbadoo]

Even a single claw has the Shred ability (that's the re-roll to wound rule), but the single claw does not give +1 Attack, as it is also a Specialty Weapon.

[FlamingDeth]

Claws are fine, I just prefer power weapons for aesthetic purposes. They fit what I imagine the Dark Angels looking like better.

[march10k]

Sadly, axes look best on jumpers, to me...while swords look best on dark angels...so I can't please myself!