Baulder Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 So I finally got around to trying out a 15 strong bloodclaws unit a couple of weeks back and I must admit they were fun. That 4A on the charge plus preferred enemy makes them very potent and aggressive unit to play. However, one thing I struggled with was the movement of the unit from A-B. In my mind there are 3 ways to get them where they need to be, each with their own limitations: 1 in a LR but it comes with a heavy price tag 2 with Saga of the hunter, but cannot charge when they arrive 3 On foot, where they risk being shot to pieces before they get there. Due to this I've found justifying using them often very difficult, which leads me to a few thoughts. Firstly, I wondered if anyone else has any other suggestions of how to run these? NB: all of the suggested methods above are based on the assumption of adding a wolf priest (as they seem to work very well as a combo). The second thought was maybe I can build a fast attack unit using either switclaws or skyclaws and get the same sort of 'fun to play' unit, without the mobility issues. However, with regards to both bikes and assault units I have little to no experience. Just wondered if anyone has run one or both of these type of unit and which seem to be the best value for the points. I've looked around for tactics but most seem to do a 'one' or 'the other' review and there seems to be struggling to find discussions of their comparative strengths/weaknesses. From what I gather the bikes get the TL-bolters and pistols and the higher toughness so they can fire a fair few more shots into a unit to soften them up before the charge. But that this comes at the increased points cost. On the other hand the jet pack equivalent have the mobility and numbers which adds to their number of HoR attacks at step 10 as well as the wound count to weather the storm. Similar to the normal set-up I would like run these with a wolf priest for that fearless/preferred enemy bonus he brings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Swift claws are the hidden gem in the space wolves codex. There cheap pump out a lot of attacks and best of all you can give them all melta bombs. Give them melta bombs a flamer and power weapon and there good to against hordes vehicle and monstrous creatures. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3629033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schertenleib Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Don't have my codex handy. What's the max unit size on Swiftclaws? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3629138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 SwiftClaws: I think the max is 10, just check on that before you accept it, have not reviewed that entry in some time. Also. SwiftClaws: (HQ) on Bike, WGPL on Bike, 10 SwiftClaws, options as chosen SkyClaws: (HQ) with Jump Pack, 10 SkyClaws, options as chosen. I would like to see WGPL able to join SkyClaw packs. In the meantime, in my points heavy list, I think I will use WGBL instead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3629144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baulder Posted March 21, 2014 Author Share Posted March 21, 2014 Yeah, pretty sure it is 3-10. Have you run both those set-ups Karack? Any preference/success with either? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3629185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 5-7 seems to be the golden number in my experience any more and they get hard to move around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3629205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrogzc Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 fo me 5 swiftclaws are too low... and bigger is a little expensive Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3629208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Yeah, pretty sure it is 3-10. Have you run both those set-ups Karack? Any preference/success with either? No; I have never used bikers, however, from what I can tell theorycraft wise, it would make sense that SwiftClaws are more maneuverable overall, however, SkyClaws would also apparently shine in that if one can get the distances correct their high number of attacks on the charge can be safely brought to bear, possibly including rerolling the charge distance. I have only used the SkyClaws, however, in a fun friendly game, I did try to run 15 SkyClaws led by a Wolf Priest. That was a blast, even at 270 points. I'd love to see the option to go up to 15 SkyClaws in our new codex; don't know yet if we shall or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3629212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Yeah, pretty sure it is 3-10. Have you run both those set-ups Karack? Any preference/success with either? No; I have never used bikers, however, from what I can tell theorycraft wise, it would make sense that SwiftClaws are more maneuverable overall, however, SkyClaws would also apparently shine in that if one can get the distances correct their high number of attacks on the charge can be safely brought to bear, possibly including rerolling the charge distance. I have only used the SkyClaws, however, in a fun friendly game, I did try to run 15 SkyClaws led by a Wolf Priest. That was a blast, even at 270 points. I'd love to see the option to go up to 15 SkyClaws in our new codex; don't know yet if we shall or not. . It would go a long way to making them viable if Every claw variant could be able to get an upper limit of 15 and be able to take a power weapon for every 5 models as they used to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3629218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Yeah, pretty sure it is 3-10. Have you run both those set-ups Karack? Any preference/success with either? No; I have never used bikers, however, from what I can tell theorycraft wise, it would make sense that SwiftClaws are more maneuverable overall, however, SkyClaws would also apparently shine in that if one can get the distances correct their high number of attacks on the charge can be safely brought to bear, possibly including rerolling the charge distance. I have only used the SkyClaws, however, in a fun friendly game, I did try to run 15 SkyClaws led by a Wolf Priest. That was a blast, even at 270 points. I'd love to see the option to go up to 15 SkyClaws in our new codex; don't know yet if we shall or not. . It would go a long way to making them viable if Every claw variant could be able to get an upper limit of 15 and be able to take a power weapon for every 5 models as they used to. In my experience, the meta of the game is going away from CC killy and moving more into ranged shooting; however, the upper limit of 15 seemed to be a nice workaround towards making the units even more lethal. In that friendly game, my 15 man SC unit tied up a full eleven man unit of Hammernators for two turns. That was impressive, and considering the pushes in the other areas that were made seemed like a decent enough first effort for the pack of fifteen. Solid unit at that size, if a bit expensive, however, the potentials for damage on getting them into CC on the intended target is enough that other things will try to intercept; adjust accordingly, and things should be quite nasty for the enemy soon enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3629232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I have two 16 man Blood Claw units, featuring a WGPL, 2 flamers, a power weapon and a MotW model. I stick them in a Land Raider Crusader and let it go. While expensive I tend to take at least one of these squads in most games, the sheer size of the pack and having them come out of a Land Raider tends to really surprise people. They just don't expect it, usually Terminators or Veterans would be rolling around in a LR but Blood Claws? And the extra bodies and sheer number of attacks makes them quite effective and the flamers make them deadly in shooting at close range as well. I also use a small 5 man Skyclaw pack for flanking and harassment purposes, the small size and cost of jump troops makes the small pack of limited effectiveness but it can really help as a speed bump, I throw them at something nasty I want stuck for a couple turns and it gives me time for the rest of my force to finish off their targets before redeploying. As for Swiftclaws I've never used them however with twin-linked bolters as standard on the bikes and the extra point of toughness combined with speed I think they would be excellent additions to any force. 6th Edition is great for bikes, though I rarely see bikes the rules now really benefit them and when they are seen they are devastatingly effective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3631223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baulder Posted March 24, 2014 Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 very true vash. That is exactly how I ran the bloodclaws when I first tried them out and damn it was fun. My friend had dropped a a sternguard combi bomb in a pod next to the LR and failed to pop it open (only taking a couple of hull points off with all the meltas). Afterwhich 15 BC + a WP jumped out and charged in with a sickening number of attacks and use the kill to leap frog before making a charge to another unit and and flattening that too. The 16 fearless models really was unstoppable at that point. Like you say though it can get expensive. That unit was about 610 points which is a lot of eggs in one basket. I was crunching a few number the other day, looking at a basic set up for swift and sky claws and found that a full 10 skyclaws still put out less kills against MEQ than the bikes, if you factor in the TW bolters. I'm thinking to get something like 5 bikes, 1 attack bike and 1 priest or WG on a bike. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3631634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I have a unit of skyclaws w/wolf priest - but they only realy get played in apocalypse. Points wise htey jsut get too expensive in 'competitve' games and are too easy to whittle down the numbers on (unless you can tank wounds on the wolf priest successfully). If i had the option these days, id probably run a few bikers - 2 squads of 5-6 with flamers and melta bombs seem a good idea. The TL-bolters negate the BS3 and give em a priest to negate WS3 - seems a good option...im sure there was a tactica on using swiftclaws about somewhere...but may have been written in 5th... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3631652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Yes, our littlbitz wrote that Swift Claw Tactica during 5e, but I'm sure it is still more than relevant. If y'all ask him nicely, he might even give an update to reflect his 6e experiences. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3632214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 From what I gather the bikes get the TL-bolters and pistols and the higher toughness so they can fire a fair few more shots into a unit to soften them up before the charge. Just remember that you don't get to fire both the TL Bolters and the Bolt Pistols together; the Bolt Pistols are only there to get you the extra "off-hand" Attack in close combat. You're going to always want to fire those Relentless TL Bolters, unless of course you've given one of the models a Special Weapon (i.e. Flamer, Melta, or Plasma). V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3632218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baulder Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 I didn't realise that. Cheers valerian. TL bolters it is then. Anyone got a quick link to that 5e tactica, if not no bother Google ftw Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3633135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Here it is: http://space-wolves-grey.blogspot.com/2011/09/swiftclaw-tactica-part-1-by-ted-nagel.html V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3633371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baulder Posted March 26, 2014 Author Share Posted March 26, 2014 cheers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288423-bloodclaws-skyclaws-and-swiftclaws/#findComment-3633673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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