Rhino Rush vs Drop Pod in current meta

[Gothical]

Perhaps use a mix? I am debating using 2 Rhino-borne Tactical Squads and a Razorback Command Squad as my main push, supporting it with 1-3 units in Drop Pods (Assault Marines with fighting Character, Sternguard, Dreadnoughts, perhaps even a Tactical Squad etc.) - the army should be quite flexible in terms of what it can do as you have both the initial drop ability of 1-2 Pods and possibly a reserve unit whilst at the same time having the ground-based transports to put pressure on the same/different places, and more mobility in subsequent rounds versus a Pod unit.

 

I can certainly see the argument that specialising in one gives you better all-round target saturation (more armoured targets or more infantry appearing behind the lines Turn 1), but I feel that either kind misses out on some important tactical flexibility and a mix adds its own kind of target saturation.

[SyNidus]

Aye that can be a problem. Last time when I used to run only 3, i just lacked the necessary punch, this was even worse if I also had something in the third drop pod.

 

The way I see it, either go 1 or 3 pods to come on turn 1. Anything in between runs the risk of piecemeal destruction. 1 pod with a Melta command squad will easily net you first blood, 3 pods with full tacs ensures you can swamp an opponent in his deployment zone.

[minigun762]

A mix could be the safest way to go, hedge your bets instead of specializing. 

[Azash]

One thing to consider is there are reasonable substitutes for pods but not rhinos.

 

A bike squad or two can give you that hard pressing element, an out flanking razorback can as well. They are obviously different but provide a similar capability.

 

The only other transports we have that can haul 10 marines are land raiders and storm ravens...200+ and you can't combat squad. The rhino is the only thing that provides large scale mobility and flexibility.

 

I think its not a discussion of which unit is better but a question of press tactics vs flexible tactics. Personally I believe a good list should include elements to execute both tactics, maximizing strategic options for the list.

[Armfelt]

I agree, but still; the more rhino-chassis that are on the table, the more likely they will be able to arrive at their desired location.

Same with Drop pods, the more you have, the greater effect.

You need to decide what is more important, to be able to handle all situations or excel in a few. I guess that is the tricky part for me atleast.

[MordentHex]

Granted, I use to run drop pods in 3rd edition with my ravenguard, and the rules really did differ back then for good and for bad, but being able to drop pod in 70+ marines into the face of the enemy is horrifying to most people. Even with interceptor these days I would not be so worried about it. Yes deathstar units held back to counter charge into your marines is a problem only if you do not expect it. Take care and prepare for that. Preparation like said before is very important.

Example:

turn 1 drop in, combat squad everything, take out high priority threats, rapid fire choice targets which will grant you the best kill ratio. Your fighting attrition at this point, every model you force your opponent to pick up is one that can't shoot and/or charge you next turn.

Turn 2, drop your pods in to support your landed forces as they move in closer, repeat, but dont for get your boltpistols which you can shoot and then charge with your forces which landed last turn. Don't fight fair, charge a single unit with multiple units to take them down with numbers. this works great with tac combat squads with a serg that has some form of ccw. Charge tanks which are close enough to krak grenade them to death. with the new charge ranges being 2d6 this is tricky sometimes because of the luck factor and your can't lock a non walker vehicle in close combat.

For this, cheap sternguard, tactical squads, assault squads with and without jumppacks are best. quantity over quality. Command squads are good too, but kitting them out is expencive. I respectfully would rather have another tac squad or dreadnought.

Or

as your primary drop deals with the enemy your subsequent drops can take objectives and provide supporting fire into the close range firefight while holding the objectives and causing your enemy to have to split its fire or ignore 1 for the other. Thunderfire cannons, support dreads and Devastators are good for this tactic.

Also this im not so sure about, but i dont think you have to start embarked on transport vehicles. If so its very possible you could just drop in the pods to block line of sight and turn your force into a firing line. I could be wrong but it's food for thought i guess.

Rhino's i never liked much, i only use them with other armor formations. By themselves they are cheap but have always found them to fragile to do any kind of rush on their own, they really need armor 12 or better to hide behind to at least get a cover save. a three vindicator or predator spearhead would be good for this though. or better at higher points battles landraiders. I have seen many armies use them through several editions, but without them being assault vehicles these days, the rush just wont work on its own, and even when it did work, it was predictable. jumping out of a Rhino these days to effectively use your bolters is asking for hot plasma to cut down your marines in short order at best, shot and charged at worst. if your going to use them, take at least 5 or 6. at that point though its a large points game and the enemy can muster more guns to take them down too. you would need to do a refused flank formation and try to hit hard only in one part of the opponents formation working your way into the opponents army over several turns or hard fighting. Don't overlook your stormbolters on the rhinos and take a hunterkiller missile on each just to get in the first hit on the enemy if you get the first turn or if they are immobilized can do something to make up their points besides looking pretty as cover.

Cheasy as it is but 6 dreads with twin autocannons will make short work of a rhino rush for less points and still be able to engage the units left to foot slog it across the field and leaving those nicely painted rhino's as terrain which does not help you in any way. 6 dreadnoughts each with a twinlinked lascannon or missile launcher and a twinlinked autocannons is even worse for just a few points more. That's only two examples

Then again..it is up to the preference of the player and what didn't work for me, or people i played with may work with yourselves or other people you play with. Meta changes a lot. All i know is, i don't think either will work against an all knight army or a dedicated tau/imperial guard gun line if your opponent is sly enough to know how your army works and/or your general plan. When all else fails, charge. I'm a World Eater at heart.

Sorry for the rant, but that's my two cents.

[Azash]

Interesting take. One question though how is jumping out of a drop pod to use your bolters is survivable cause you suggest charging with the survivors however getting out of a rhino to use bolters is "asking to get cut down by plasma at worst or shot and charged at best".

 

In my experience once the troops have disembarked its pretty much the same and its T4 and 3+ saves that dictate survivability not the transport you got out of.

[MordentHex]

Interesting take. One question though how is jumping out of a drop pod to use your bolters is survivable cause you suggest charging with the survivors however getting out of a rhino to use bolters is "asking to get cut down by plasma at worst or shot and charged at best".

 

In my experience once the troops have disembarked its pretty much the same and its T4 and 3+ saves that dictate survivability not the transport you got out of.

 

OK so yes that does sound very contradictory doesn't it. the time it take to actually set up and deploy out of the rhino is a lot more transparent than that of drop podding in. In my experience players that drop pod are a lot more in your face about it, including myself. A rhino on the other hand has to move across the board which gives the opponent not only a turn to shoot at it and maybe make your marines pop out in no mans land, but more importantly maneuver to effectively counter it, or deny its full effectiveness before they even get there.

 

Edit: back from work.  My point is that rhinos can be countered because they can be seen on the table and you and your opponent know where they are, this is much less true if you have them in reserves for outflanking, but then you dont know where they will enter the board either until you roll the dice for them to come in. this can lead to your valuable troops sitting on a flank which they can do nothing and have to drive hells bells for another turn just to reach the fight.

 

  With a drop pod yes there is deep strike deviation, but if your drop pods on the first turn have homing beacons this is mitigated greatly. Sure they can destroy your drop pods and you lose them, but then that's guns not shooting your marines which are doing the heavy lifting. Win win. I have ran an outflanking white scars army and an all drop pod army, the drop pod army performed much more reliably than the outflanking army did hands down. This is not to say you cant have your cake and eat it too, BIKES! bikes outflanking are nightmares! they can even if coming in on the wrong flank can pose a considerable threat too anything within a 24" area after entering the table. if you have these along with Rhino's then the Rhino's become much more viable. I wont even get started on attack bike squads, they are discusting when fielded in squadrons.

 

 You could also take speeders to support your rhinos and to deal with fliers which come along to try and destroy them with the boost of having more armored targets which your enemy will need to consider before he tries to eliminate there imposed threat. Most people would probably shoot the speeders because they have a higher immediate threat index than the rhino's do which leaves your rhino's unmolested for a turn.

 

My point is, rhino's alone while fail to deliver on their own but have more tactical flexibility when combined with other forces.  Drop pods alone are viable, but do not have the same flexibility when used with other units within your army. your opponent can begin forming strategics on  how to counter those rhino's as soon as you set them up on the table. Drop pods have the advantage of the opponent can not form a stratagy to deal with or contain them until after they have come onto the board, before then its all guesses and crap shots.

 

side note: the drop pod can be upgraded to have the launcher, nice fat pie template to support your marines in close. it is a great horde smasher and attrition weapon.  The rhino has smoke launchers and a searchlight by default that's not bad at all considering we use to have to pay for that as an upgrade in previous editions. The addition of a second storm bolter or a hunter killer missile can turn your rhino from a transport to a nice little support unit for a few more points. Always take the extra armor upgrade, without it a lucky penetrating hit will stop the rhino in its tracks and it wont survive another turn of shooting for sure. The points are worth it just in case to at least allow your rhino to move into cover or stay with the rest of the group.

[Azash]

So cause drop pods are not on the board first turn that prevents me from taking coteaz so I can wipe every unit that drops within 12" of him in my opponents movement phase, or it prevents me from deploying servo skulls to increase scatter, or it prevents me from bubbling critical targets, etc?

 

Not saying drop pods are not good just seems like the lily is getting a bit gilded here.

[MordentHex]

If i was foolish enough to drop within range of him, absolutely. They DO have draw backs. make no mistake about that, just from my experience better than rhino's which is the topic and i just explained my reasoning is all. aslo i gave the grows and cons for using both in my opinion only of course

[Ming]

Played a great game last night as part of a FLGS campaign. My opponent (Ravens) had 3 drop pods and a rhino from which to deploy a dread, 3 short tac squads, and 2 termie librarians. I had (Ultras) 2 full tac squads in pods and a termie librarian and assault terminators.

 

The infiltrating stealthy Raven rhino died first.

 

All of the drop pods survived the game.

 

We both lost all of our tactical squads by turn 6.

 

I took out his invisible librarians in lots of dice rolling in assault.

 

It was a fun game.

 

I won because my drop pod put me on the central objective faster than his rhino could, and then I kept him off of it till the game ended turn 6.

 

All 5 drop pods were arrayed around the objective at the end, it was a blast!

[riddles]

One thing I've found in the last 5 months or so is that what missions you play greatly impact whether pods or rhinos is good for you.

 

for example, I have been running a list that is strongest in midfield (grav cents, tactical rhinos with bolter drill, lysander as a counter charge) with some firebase elements (double thunderfire, las/missile cents).

 

as soon as I roll long deployment, i know i'm in for a very uphill struggle because my opponents (if they are shooty) immediately have a deeper zone to deployment in and be farther away from my shooty units.

 

without bikes, or pods, i have nothing to pressure my opponent, dig out his units out of LOS (a thunderfire can only do so much) or even to contest linebreaker. This is made worse if we play the scouring and the 4/3 point objectives are deep in his deployment zone.

 

with a mix of 3 pods and 3 rhinos, i find it much more flexible. yes the rhinos die easy. yes they may give up first blood, but they get my guys where they need to go and protect them early on from large AP3 blasts. with 2 AV13 walkers in my opponents face first turn, my tacticals get where they need to be and are causing trouble.

[IK Viper]

Everyone likes to gravitate on the fact that "Rhinos die easy," and yes they do. We all know this, but atleast they are a target. Once a Drop Pod hits the field it can effectively be ignored unless the Storm Bolter shots are just to much for you to take, (at which point you have worse problems.) Sometimes it is well worth 35 points in order to negate one enemy unit's shooting for a turn. Drop Pods allow you to basically "Deploy," anywhere you want. Rhinos provide a way for units to move faster then their allotted 6 inches per turn. I think that Rhinos are a liability without Scout as you have not deployment options at all. They must either roll on or start on the table and as has been pointed out (to death) you are easy to predict. I would advocate Pods over normal Rhinos for this reason. However, with the addition of Scout, the whole argument changes. Rhinos will often die, Drop Pods will often be ignored, so the only real issue is not the resiliance of the vehicle, it is the service it provides. You're paying 35 points to get your marines where they need to go quickly.

 

Marines have mostly short ranged weapons and are not bad in assault so it seems logical to want to drop them as close as you can to the enemy. My only problem is that with Drop Pods, there is no way to hit with your entire force at once, not even under the best of conditions. Scouting Rhinos can deliver all your marines on top of turn 1 barring Servo Skulls. Also, if you have second turn or are facing servo skulls, you still have the option to outflank. That way you have a 3+ to bring your stuff in, ALL YOUR STUFF, not just the left overs.

 

There is alot of Ingnores Cover and AP 2-1 in the game, but very few Ignore LOS weapons in the game. A dead Rhino has won me many games simply becaues it did not Explode and afforded my troops a place to hide. All your getting from a Pod is a 5+ cover save (unles your one of those guys that thinks the doors don't have to be dropped... which is retarded, just look at any GW picture/ illistration of a landed Drop Pod) Pods also offer no tactical options against Vector Strike or Highly mobile armies. Rhinos can be an extra layer of Helldrake protection, If you're using Pods you better be going first in order to get locked in assault or your going to be standing there waiting to get Vector Struck and flamed. A Rhino can take the first lick for your troops and can also set up outside of Vector Strike range, denying Vector Strikes from even the Helldrake until turn 3 even on Dawn of War. A Drop Pod will never allow you to Flat Out up under a Flyer to avoid getting shot/ Vector Struck in the case of the HD. All a Drop Pod does is let you deploy half your units anywhere you want on turn 1. Nothing else. Rhinos offer additional tactical options.

 

To those that want to harp on the "predicability," of a Rhino list, how are Drop Pod lists any different?  The weapons loadouts on a unit will dictate what deployment options you have with it.  Either your going to Drop in close to use your Rapid Fire weapons, or you will drop farther away from the enemy and lose much of your offensive capabilities.  Either way, it then becomes super easy to predict what the unit coming out of the Pod will be doing for the rest of the game becasue they can only move so far in 5-7 turns.  It makes gameplanning really easy when all your opponent's units are walking after turn 2-3.  Not saying Rhinos are better in this regard, just saying that Drop Pods are also very counterable too. 

 

What recource does a Drop Pod army have against a Deamon/ Eldar/ Dark Eldar/ or SM Bike army that is going 2nd?   If you spread out to cover objectives, these much faster armies will focus down your scattered forces.  If you drop in mass and attempt to inflict a killing blow the enemy deploys in a scattered manor all spread out, reserves what he can, bubble important stuff he can't hide in reserves,  and then boosts to corners of the board you have no presence in, where they can deliver long range fire and win on objectives. 

 

Drop Pods let you deploy your army on turns 1 and 2  anywhere on the board, but you better do it well becasue once you do, that's it.  You do not have the speed to redeploy your army after that point.  I personnally dislike this becasue often if you do leave one unit back on an objective in your back field and they die/ break off the board you have no way at all of getting anyone else over there later in the game, all your mobility is gone.  I for one appriciate the option to hide out of LOS, Outflank, etc. and wait until my Flyers and other reserves come on so that I can attack with a whole army, instead of with half of them rounded up.  Or the option to play the attrition game, knowing that I have a Rhino shell to take the first hit, then 2 MSU style units to deal with.  For all the flak Rhinos take S4 weapons still can't hurt them and provide the marines inside protection against the small arms fire that would normally grind them down.  You don't even have the option to stay inside if you want with a Pod.