Which Traitor Primarch do you think regretted it the most?

[Wade Garrett]

As far as Pert goes....Angel Exterminatus, p. 409

 

Perturabo did not know where his duplicitous brother had gone, nor did he care. His betrayal had turned the last of Perturabo's heart to stone, cementing his conviction that there was only one man whose orders he could trust.

 

One warrior who spoke without guile and with only noble intentions at his heart.

 

From now on, he would trust only Horus Lupercal.

 

Ouch! Right in my feels...

[Goreshed]

See Perturabo is an interesting subject for this. Throughout the book you see the side of him that he had locked away behind his own fortress inside of him. He was a creator but also the one Primarch who really and I mean absolutely, stuck to the path laid before him and didn't look back. He said it to Fulgrim when they were having their little discussion inside of Perturabo's mind as they chatted in one of his creations, the past was the past and it's gone, there is nothing for him to even think about.

 

So yes, does Perturabo regret the path laid before him, you bet. But does he let that stop him or what he has become? Not in the slightest.

[A D-B]

Horus, by a squillion miles. Like, the series ends at the moment he realises he's been duped and he massively regrets it all. That's pretty telling.

[Relict]

Hmm... Let's see now.

 

Horus - his moment of regret comes during the battle with the Emperor, when he at last realizes what he has done and begs for his father to free him from the Chaos Gods. Remember that Horus was a nice guy before Davin.

 

Angron - too furious to feel anything else. The great irony of his life being that he believes in freedom from tyranny, choosing to die free with his fellow gladiators rather than serve what he saw as another tyrant. Despite this, he would spend eternity serving Khorne. 

 

Fulgrim - genuinely regretted killing Ferrus Manus and driven to the verge of suicide. Post-possession, not so much.

 

Mortarion - feeling that he is on the wrong side but at the same time realizing that he is in too deep now to back out. Possible future story arc involving him contemplating turning on/abandoning Horus's cause. Typhon senses this, freaks out, and traps the XIV Legion in the Warp while en route to Terra. The rest is (diseased) history.

 

Lorgar - hard to gauge where he stands, but if our spiritual liege is to be believed, he is now trapped in his tower "weeping in shame and guilt at what he has done".

 

Perturabo - feelings of genuine guilt and regret after purging his homeworld. This drove him to Horus. 

 

Konrad Curze - too crazy to tell.

 

Magnus the Red - all the way, since he was the only one driven to rebel by circumstances. At this point in the Horus Heresy novels, still unwilling to commit his forces to the traitor's cause. 

 

Alpharius - who the hell knows.

[Phoros]

Lorgar - hard to gauge where he stands, but if our spiritual liege is to be believed, he is now trapped in his tower "weeping in shame and guilt at what he has done".

Really? Where was that said?

[WarSpirit]

Horus has the most regrets. Before the heresy he was a noble soul, caring for everyone and believing in his father dream. At the end the veil is lifted and he sees that he has become what he had fighted before Davin, the atrocity he commited surely broke him, where the only thing to do was to beg for death.

 

On Lorgar's subject, always wondered, if he indeed lives in regrets in his tower why the Chaos gods tolerate this. They turned people into spawn for far less.

[Nomus Sardauk]

On Lorgar's subject, always wondered, if he indeed lives in regrets in his tower why the Chaos gods tolerate this. They turned people into spawn for far less.

Because it amuses them, they're more than happy to let Lorgar sit and grieve for eternity because they have no further use for him, he's already fulfilled his purpose of causing the Heresy and destroying Humanity's hope for the future. The Emperor is trapped upon the throne and the galaxy is stuck in eternal war, Chaos has already won.

[Stormborn]

horus, when he realises how he has been manipulated in to betraying his father and brothers and then abandoned.  although he probably doesn't get much further than oh b..... before ceasing to exist.  Sucks to be you traitor boy! 

 

Of the rest I'm not convinced that any of them have any regrets, regret is a human concept and they are all daemons.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I'd say its a tie between Horus and Fulgrim. The reason being that those two were possessed, Horus by the Chaos Gods themselves and Fulgrim by a powerful Daemon. All the other primarchs, even if they were perfectly justified in turning (Magnus), turned out of their own free will. Horus and Fulgrim never had a choice and therefore regretted it the most.

[Emperor's Furor]

If exclude Horus and focus on the surviving ones after his fall, who do you feels the most guilty or remorse?

[Perrin]

Currently they're all daemon princes (except possibly Alpharius/Omegon) so it's really hard to judge whether they now see it as worth it, or whether they wish they were still Primarchs.

 

I think they all regret losing, and they spend most of their time moping around in their various strongholds, but they are now immortal, worshipped as gods and (possibly) much stronger than they were when they were Primarchs. Being daemons I'm not sure they see the Long War in the same way that Abaddon and other traitors marines might.

 

Alpharius/Omegons plans have obviously failed, and they haven't become daemons, so they probably regret it a lot. If they're alive, or if their plan actually did fail?

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

Lorgar - hard to gauge where he stands, but if our spiritual liege is to be believed, he is now trapped in his tower "weeping in shame and guilt at what he has done".

Really? Where was that said?

Seconding the "What?" on this one.

[Kol Saresk]

I'd say its a tie between Horus and Fulgrim. The reason being that those two were possessed, Horus by the Chaos Gods themselves and Fulgrim by a powerful Daemon. All the other primarchs, even if they were perfectly justified in turning (Magnus), turned out of their own free will. Horus and Fulgrim never had a choice and therefore regretted it the most.

not entirely true. Both had a choice. They were just unable to comprehend what that choice entailed. Nowhere did someone force Horus to accept Erebus' offer. Nowhere did a daemon take over Fulgrim's body and make him walk the path of that led to Istvaan V. Both made choices.

 

But obviously Fulgrim doesn't regret it since he's taken back his body and ascended to daemonhood.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

I'd say its a tie between Horus and Fulgrim. The reason being that those two were possessed, Horus by the Chaos Gods themselves and Fulgrim by a powerful Daemon. All the other primarchs, even if they were perfectly justified in turning (Magnus), turned out of their own free will. Horus and Fulgrim never had a choice and therefore regretted it the most.

not entirely true. Both had a choice. They were just unable to comprehend what that choice entailed. Nowhere did someone force Horus to accept Erebus' offer. Nowhere did a daemon take over Fulgrim's body and make him walk the path of that led to Istvaan V. Both made choices.

But obviously Fulgrim doesn't regret it since he's taken back his body and ascended to daemonhood.

For Fulgrim yes he did have a choice but he was lied to. It is also possible that the Daemon possessed Fulgrim just lied to the captains. Horus on the other hand, I believe his possession was forced on him and he didn't have a choice.

[Monstra Sumus]

There was nothing forced about Horus. He chose to believe the visions granted unto him when he was drifting between life and death. He knew something had changed when he was brought back but he didn't seek out his Father to seek his help or knowledge. He harbored the resentment that Erebus and by extension Chaos whispered into his ears, he listened to his Brothers, trusting their word implicitly over going directly to his Father to ask questions, to demand answers to all the things he'd been made privy to. Instead of going to the man who made him, he brought war and death and fire to the cradle of humanity, by this point he now had new parents, ones who fostered his desires, his ambition, but most of all, who encouraged his discord. He, the son, raised his hand and slew his own family, he sundered it beyond repair and struck his Father, the one being responsible for all that he was. Chaos withdrew, whether they abandoned him or could not keep their grasp in the face of the Emperors gathered psychic might, they left Horus in the state they found him. Confused and seeking solace from his father, but knowing all that he had done up unto that point and finally realizing that all he had to have done was ask. His apology was to die. 

 

At least, that's how I see it. To me, the betrayal is the setting and Horus is the tragedy. 

[Sanct]

Which makes me think that Horus' death is a sign of how messed up the Emperor was.  Horus - the closest of his sons - having betrayed his vision,  has the veil lifted from his eyes and sees all he has done.

The Emperor - for all his capabilities in viewing what happens in the warp - sees Horus clear of the Chaos Gods and....kills him?

It's like the Prodigal Son is returned and there is the perfect opportunity to stop the fighting and mend the Imperium with the help of the - arguably - greatest Primarch.  Instead the Emperor kills him, not only slaying obliterating Horus but leaving the entire Traitor force to scatter and be a permanent problem while the Emperor hisself is pinned to the Golden Throne unable to push the Imperium forward towards whatever he envisioned.

 

Was it another moment of human weakness, a monumental cockup or is there much missing from the story? (like an unfounded rumour/idea I heard that Horus managed to kill the Emperor and switch places with him)

[Monstra Sumus]

Retribution and vengeance, most likely. Up until the point Horus began to systematically wipe out his brothers and finally slew Sanguinius, I think the Emperor could have welcomed him back with open arms, could have mind scrubbed him and scryed and mended his broken soul. I even believe the Emperor could have reconciled with Horus for the war and the battles with his brothers, but he out right murdered Sanguinius, who knew he had to die to make the Emperor act. I do believe He was indecisive, this was his favoured son, essentially the best part of himself waging war right to his door step, killing millions and setting fire to the stars, maybe he was figuring out how to resolve the monumental problem he was facing, while, you know, stopping an army of Daemons with his mind, but that inner turmoil dissipated the second Horus killed the Angel. Horus made the choice for him and the Emperor knew what must be done. The good does not wash away the bad, nor does an apology absolve the damage done, magnify that by several million and we have Horus and his guilt, shame and hurt. The Emperor forgave him, by erasing him from existence, from washing him away, not his actions. In death, the Emperor absolved him. Horus believed himself invincible, believed he was ultimately more powerful that the Emperor and all the Gods of existence, he was mistaken and paid for that mistake. I like to think he accepted it at the end, when he was reduced back to being himself, stripped of his daemon induced power, stripped of the hate and loathing. I believe he knew what he had done and knew what had to happen and just closed his eyes. 

 

Then BLAM! MIND BULLETS. 

[Aristander]

Have to go with Perturabo after reading Angel Exterminatus.  He's resolutely set on his path, but it was the numbing realisation that there would be no forgiveness for the Iron Warriors' actions on Olympia that forced them into throwing in their lot with Horus initially.  He's become probably my favorite primarch (other than RG), there's so many little moments in the book - making his Oath of Moment to the Emperor, expressing his regret that all his creations end up wrapped in tragedy (the theater, Nikea), the idealised dream presented to him (practically a mirror image of Guilliman's Macragge).

 

I was surprised he willingly ascended to Daemonhood - can't remember where but it mentioned someone in the fluff that the Iron Warriors preferred to lop off any limb experiencing mutation and replace it with bionics - many of their brothers in the other Traitor Legions would see that as a sign of favour.

[Marshal Loss]

Mortarion for me - he spends eternity self-loathing himself for his weakness after capitulating to Nurgle.

[Marshal Rohr]

Horus, by a squillion miles. Like, the series ends at the moment he realises he's been duped and he massively regrets it all. That's pretty telling.

But will the execution of this scene be fulfilling? Or will it be like VS and Fulgrim?

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

I'd say its a tie between Horus and Fulgrim. The reason being that those two were possessed, Horus by the Chaos Gods themselves and Fulgrim by a powerful Daemon. All the other primarchs, even if they were perfectly justified in turning (Magnus), turned out of their own free will. Horus and Fulgrim never had a choice and therefore regretted it the most.

not entirely true. Both had a choice. They were just unable to comprehend what that choice entailed. Nowhere did someone force Horus to accept Erebus' offer. Nowhere did a daemon take over Fulgrim's body and make him walk the path of that led to Istvaan V. Both made choices.

But obviously Fulgrim doesn't regret it since he's taken back his body and ascended to daemonhood.

 

 

For Fulgrim yes he did have a choice but he was lied to. It is also possible that the Daemon possessed Fulgrim just lied to the captains. Horus on the other hand, I believe his possession was forced on him and he didn't have a choice.

 

 

When Horus was on his deathbed on Davin, he had a choice to believe Magnus, or believe Erebus. He chose Erebus.

[Wade Garrett]

"Well, yes, he disguised himself as my beloved dead son, so that's a mark against him, but where was my statue? WHERE WAS MY STATUE?"

 

-Horus, False Gods

[Sanct]

Tyrax: even after all that Horus was still the Emperor's son (in a twisted way) and by obliterating him he removed all chance of true redemption. (do we even know whether Horus begged for death or penance at the end?)

If he was a truer father figure to Horus (and humanity as well) he would have brought Horus back to the fold of fighting for humanity's future and created a future from the ruins of his previous plans.  

 

In that moment the Emperor chose to damn the IoM to the next 10k years of stagnation and death.

 

Indeed looking at The Emperor's decisions involving Magnus (let the one who you planned to put in the Golden Throne run around as a free agent and ultimately balls it up for you) and Lorgar (don't idolise me but I won't tell you why idolising the chaos beings is just as bad) I'm thinking one of his ultimate plans was to become the 'new God of the warp' of Horus' Davin-vision 

[Perrin]

Tyrax: even after all that Horus was still the Emperor's son (in a twisted way) and by obliterating him he removed all chance of true redemption. (do we even know whether Horus begged for death or penance at the end?)

If he was a truer father figure to Horus (and humanity as well) he would have brought Horus back to the fold of fighting for humanity's future and created a future from the ruins of his previous plans.  

 

In that moment the Emperor chose to damn the IoM to the next 10k years of stagnation and death.

 

Indeed looking at The Emperor's decisions involving Magnus (let the one who you planned to put in the Golden Throne run around as a free agent and ultimately balls it up for you) and Lorgar (don't idolise me but I won't tell you why idolising the chaos beings is just as bad) I'm thinking one of his ultimate plans was to become the 'new God of the warp' of Horus' Davin-vision 

 

The Emperor was already mortally wounded, even if he had spared Horus it would still have been Golden Throne time for him. If Horus turned again the Emperor wouldn't be around to stop him the second time. Horus had fallen too far, there could be no redemption for him. The traitors would never have listened to him, and neither would the loyalists. There were no positives to sparing Horus and a lot of negatives.

[Kol Saresk]

The older fluff had it that the Emperor blasted Horus so hard that he was temporarily freed from the influence of the Dark Gods. But as it was the Dark Gods and not some random daemon that were controlling Horus, their control would eventually return. So then the Emperor blasted his soul out of existence and put himself onto the Golden Throne. There was no way to save Horus. Once he chose to become the Pawn of the Gods, he was damned for as long as he lived.