Which Traitor Primarch do you think regretted it the most?

[Phoros]

@Ada: From that, I got more of an impression of "Huh, I guess he didn't hate me. I guess it was a bit rude of me to deck him on Monarchia, then. Oh well."

[Wade Garrett]

While Lorgar does seem to have some sympathy for Guilliman when he realizes that the mindset Rob has after watching the 500 Worlds burn is much like the one Aurelian himself had immediately after Monarchia, it didn't stop him from trying to cave in the Battle King's skull with Illuminarium or going forward with the whole "Daemon Angron giant warpstorm" plan.

[daveNYC]

Okay, I think I may have gone a bit overboard ranting about Magnus...chalk it up to watching all the good work Graham did in A Thousand Sons , where you could feel the XV's desperation as their back was put against the wall, be blown out of the water by an epilogue that goes:

 

"You wanna join Horus?"

 

"I dunno. You wanna join Horus?"

 

"Eh, why not?"

 

"Cool. Let's go join Horus, I guess."

 

What?  Where?

 

Am I sensing a pattern where interesting story hooks (Fulgrim being possessed, Magnus being a reluctant traitor, not to mention Horus' role in the whole thing, Mortarion not liking sorcery or being particularly interested in Nurgley things) are discarded in later books in favor of 'herp derp for kaos!'?

[Relict]

You know what, I just realized that I had my official canon and what I read off of 1d4chan mixed up.

 

Sorry. Lorgar is not, to my canon knowledge, crying himself to sleep every night on his daemon world. 

[Blood Angel Scout]

One thing about Lorgar and Betrayer is the reference to seeing the Thousand paths, one where the Emp is worshipped as a god is unbelievable to him at that point in the timeline, with his goal to create harmony between the Materium/Immaterium whereas us who read the novels, know the things in-universe characters don't as in how it ends so he may regret somethings though not all.

 

From memory, Horus says to the Emp when the Pantheon desert him to kill him because he knows he's too weak to resist...though we know that can change when it comes to then eventually.

 

As for the clones, think it was either the recent Black Legion supplement, but goes along the lines of the clones looked like Horus but don't have any of the characteristics of him, and I took it to be like almost Horus-looking servitors.....lobotomised is probably a better term but unless A-D-B is going to tell us now, we'll have to wait until Talon of Horus comes out....

[Phoros]

@Relict: Oh, RIGHT. Actually, IIRC, I put that on Lorgar's page in the first place. Admittedly, it was before Betrayer...

[daveNYC]

As for the clones, think it was either the recent Black Legion supplement, but goes along the lines of the clones looked like Horus but don't have any of the characteristics of him, and I took it to be like almost Horus-looking servitors.....lobotomised is probably a better term but unless A-D-B is going to tell us now, we'll have to wait until Talon of Horus comes out....

 

The primarchs are a bunch of crazy warp power wrapped in a genetically engineered shell.  Cloning would get you something interesting (and probably useful as a daemonhost) but it certainly wouldn't get you another primarch.  Not without adding in some serious warp mojo.

[Kol Saresk]

Its Fabius. In the Eye of Terror. I'm sure there was warp mojo. I'm just guessing this is a classic sci-fi case of clones=/=replacement for original.

[Blacksad]

clones miss the soul man... they miss the soul.

[Conn Eremon]

clones miss the soul man... they miss the soul.

That is actually a point, as supposedly the creation of the Primarchs had a little bit of the Emperor in them, and not just as the genetic template. Bile, MD would not have had access to that, or been able to replicate that.

[Wade Garrett]

I will reiterate that the notion of the Primarchs having a bit of the Emperor's soul in them comes from Erebus and Kor Phaeron.

 

EREBUS. And KOR PHAERON.

[Conn Eremon]

Who might be lying, or who might be telling the truth.

 

But who also may have been misunderstanding an actual thing. Like having aspects of the Emperor's soul wrongfully taken to meaning that they might be defined by these aspects, and mislabeling them as ruling personality traits.

 

While we would be more than likely correct if we dismissed their words as heretical or false, without the full picture we might be wrong in that.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, I personally think it's Kor being all metaphorical and stuff, and some people taking it too literally.

 

Angron is the Emperor's rage, okay, Horus is the Emperor's ambition, that makes sense, Lion is...the Emperor's rationality? What?

 

Shouldn't he be, maybe the Emperor's loyalty? No, that's Dorn. Or Russ? Could be Ferrus Manus...You see where I'm headed with this?

 

Not to mention I dislike pigeonholing the Primarchs as "Angry guy, Sad guy, Dour guy, Arrogant guy, etc" which I feel the "aspects of the Emperor, pulled from a genetic primer" viewpoint encourages.

[depthcharge12]

I think the Lion regretted it the most....

 

 

Wait, what was that chaplain? Room 42? Oh ok sounds like fun!

[Conn Eremon]

Well, I personally think it's Kor being all metaphorical and stuff, and some people taking it too literally.

 

Angron is the Emperor's rage, okay, Horus is the Emperor's ambition, that makes sense, Lion is...the Emperor's rationality? What?

 

Shouldn't he be, maybe the Emperor's loyalty? No, that's Dorn. Or Russ? Could be Ferrus Manus...You see where I'm headed with this?

 

Not to mention I dislike pigeonholing the Primarchs as "Angry guy, Sad guy, Dour guy, Arrogant guy, etc" which I feel the "aspects of the Emperor, pulled from a genetic primer" viewpoint encourages.

Right, I agree. All I am saying is that this, erroneous, conclusion of his might be founded on a truth, that the Emperor's soul was used in their creation.

[Unintentional Batman]

 

Not to mention I dislike pigeonholing the Primarchs as "Angry guy, Sad guy, Dour guy, Arrogant guy, etc"

 

You might dislike it, but that's how they are. They have their niche, their gimmick and that's the whole foundation of them. All character development has came later.

[Wade Garrett]

Ummm...no?

 

Angron and Mortarion have had more depth than "Evil Angry Guy" and "Evil Grim Reaper Guy" going all the way back to the Index Astartes articles, where the Red Angel led a slave rebellion and the Death Lord abandoned his birthright to fight the necromancers on behalf of the people of Barbarus.

 

And in the case of Fulgrim, the Heresy novels made him shallower than the old stuff.

 

IA: Emperor's Children

The only Primarch to take control of his world through peaceable means, as a politician and scientist instead of a warrior. Wished to better the lives of all mankind through culture, art, and philosophy.

 

The Heresy novels:

Primarch Rennly Baratheon. "We'll charge headlong at the laer with the sun in our eyes! It'll be a GLOOOOORRRIOUS battle, just like in the old tales! Tee hee hee! You handsome lads get on with it, I have to prance off in an androgynously feminine manner and polish my shiny sword!"

[Visitor13]

Ummm...no?

 

Angron and Mortarion have had more depth than "Evil Angry Guy" and "Evil Grim Reaper Guy" going all the way back to the Index Astartes articles, where the Red Angel led a slave rebellion and the Death Lord abandoned his birthright to fight the necromancers on behalf of the people of Barbarus.

 

And in the case of Fulgrim, the Heresy novels made him shallower than the old stuff.

 

IA: Emperor's Children

The only Primarch to take control of his world through peaceable means, as a politician and scientist instead of a warrior. Wished to better the lives of all mankind through culture, art, and philosophy.

 

The Heresy novels:

Primarch Rennly Baratheon. "We'll charge headlong at the laer with the sun in our eyes! It'll be a GLOOOOORRRIOUS battle, just like in the old tales! Tee hee hee! You handsome lads get on with it, I have to prance off in an androgynously feminine manner and polish my shiny sword!"

 

 

Not to mention economist and - dare I say it - logistician ;)

 

Yeah, Fulgrim really got the short end of the stick. And to think the EC used to be my favourite legion. Thanks for nothing, Horus Heresy Series.

[Unintentional Batman]

 

Ummm...no?

 

Heh, sorry. I was kinda bad at getting the point across, or even having any:

 

At the root of every primarch character is a very strongly defined gimmick. That's the foundation. Kinda Captain Obvious moment, not really even worth mentioning. But I was drunk, so that's my excuse.

[DinoDoc]

Angron being the "Angry Guy" is kinda forced on him by his name, Wade Garrett.

[Wade Garrett]

Angron being the "Angry Guy" is kinda forced on him by his name, Wade Garrett.

By this logic, Leman Russ should have wielded his thunder hammer and chain sickle while leading the VI Legion "Winter Guard" into battle on their cyber bear cavalry and saying things like:

 

"On Terra, you go out looking for party! On Fenris, party goes out looking for you!"

[DinoDoc]

 

Angron being the "Angry Guy" is kinda forced on him by his name, Wade Garrett.

By this logic, Leman Russ should have wielded his thunder hammer and chain sickle while leading the VI Legion "Winter Guard" into battle on their cyber bear cavalry and saying things like:

 

"On Terra, you go out looking for party! On Fenris, party goes out looking for you!"

Isn't that why they now ride Wolves into battle?

[WarSpirit]

 

Again, I would like a source on this notion that Lorgar has spent every day for the last ten thousand years crying about the Heresy.

He certainly didn't seem to regret much in Betrayer .

On topic:

Rogal Dorn is a strong contender for the most regretful Traitor. After sticking the Emperor in the Golden Throne so that he could never revive as a Perpetual or be reborn as god of Humanity, his guilt drove him to attempt suicide by Iron Warrior, then to successfully commit suicide by Black Crusade.

Isn't there a part in the book where he has the realisation that Guilliman didn't actually hate him or take any joy in destroying Monarchia as he'd thought was the case?

 

Small seeds of doubt perhaps suggesting that BL could be taking him in that sort of direction?

 

Personally though I have to agree I've never heard anything previously to suggest he is "crying in his tower".

 

Yes, in Betrayer at the final battle, when Guilliman confront him and he sees the true hatred in his eyes and realise that all along big G never hated him before.