So, if there were to be a Word Bearers supplement...

[incinerator950]

I'm leaning to agree.  The problem is the fluff doesn't mesh with how we're forced to play the meta of the game. 

[Hellios]

Supplements do notrestrict your options, they are optional. So in
fact, you are being given another choice; even if that choice is to
restrict your options. So please, don't cry about having your options
restricted, or that you will play your men however you want... You can
use the Eldar codex for your Word Bearers, who can stop you when you
have the might of the Eldar codex.

 

Good arguments are based on fluff... Ex: it is totally reasonable for Word Bearers to have marked units.

Or rules... Ex: 'While your rules match the fluff, they leave a force using this supplement unplayable.'

 

Backing up your ideas is also a positive thing.

 

I'd certainly like to see some of the 30K stuff translated into 40K thingamabobs.

 

I
do think the word bearers are a hard legion to do, and you have to add
restrictions... Otherwise the WB supplement would become C:CSM+1.
Although, to be fair C:CSM needs it.

 

I think super DA (how about the ability to grant a mark to a nearby WB unit (a unit with VotLW) for a turn? or maybe even some army wide/area affect buff of the same kind of nature?) as a HQ choice is the way to go... And I'm sure they could come up with some good relics.

 

How about all CSMs with VotLW have the  Zealot USR? If we want to reduce restrictions, how about WBs with VotLW not being allowed marks (but they can take icons), but other units can. So Oblits (which are not Word Bearers anyway...) would still be allowed marks. If the super DA hq has to be undivided, this automatically restricts the use of cult units, unless someone wants to take another lord. Cult units also wouldn't be allowed to benefit from Zealot.

 

One hopes that the Zealot rule represents the fact that WBs are Zealots, the ability to change your 'mark' on the fly using a 'Super-DA' shows how the WBs will ask for the blessings they need. The rules discourage you from taking lots of marks or cult units, but they don't stop you from doing so.

 

The last thing is daemons...

 

Units with VotLW may take chaos icons (they don't need to have a certain mark), and the icons also act like icons from C:Daemons as far as daemon units are concerned. In addition, Word Bearers may take units from the daemons codex as part of their primary detachment (these units take up FOC as normal).  They may take 0-5 daemon units from the troops  section of C:Daemons (at least one troop choice needs to be a WB unit), and 0-1 units from the following sections; Elites, FA, HS.

 

The only rules that are 'really' new are those relating to the 'Super-DA', and any relics someone adds.

 

So... What do you guys think?

[totgeboren]

Pointing to the Sanctified as an example of mono-God Word Bearers is to me like pointing to the Knights of Blood and saying that the BA should have access to the Mark of Khorne. Heretics will be heretics.

 

But realistic rules could be the FW trait of LD-tests on 3D6 take the 2 lowest, making VotLW obligatory, Cult units never counting as Troops no matter the mark on your Lord/Sorcerer/SC, some Warlord traits that are useful to a Dark Apostle (and not having half of them being abilities the DA already have!) and some relics to buff Dark Apostles, like "'Shield of Dark Glory: Dark Apostle only. Grants +1 W and +1 A and Adamantium Will". Stuff like that to make the DA viable as the leader of a warband, and not just a support character.

 

That's basically all they would need to do to make a WB supplement.

 

Icon of Vengance should grant Zealot, not Fearless, but that goes for the basic CSM codex too, because IoV is just too expensive for what it does, and especially in comparison with the superior in-built ATSKNF that the loyalists have. 

[Kol Saresk]

Pointing to the Sanctified as an example of mono-God Word Bearers is to me like pointing to the Knights of Blood and saying that the BA should have access to the Mark of Khorne. Heretics will be heretics.

 

 

???

 

The Sanctified are the Sanctified because they are Word Bearers who chose mono-cult over pantheon.

 

None of this negates that the Word Bearers worship as a pantheon system, the very nature of which meant mono-cults within and that even an "unaligned" individual would ask a specific god for specific favors from time to time. Tzeentch for safe travel through the warp, Slaanesh for charisma during the next sermon, etc.

 

Unless there's something in the background that I missed that says Abaddon is the only person allowed to appease more than one god since he's the only character/unit who can take multiple Marks.

[Plague Angel]

Rather than limiting marks, I'd sooner like something that encouraged equal devotion rather than none. I admit I have no idea what that would be, but having all four gods present on the table feels more WB to me than having none of them.

[MaliGn]

Something like: cult troops cannot become troops even if the warlord is marked. In addition all marked units are 0-1 unless one is taken for each god at which point a second marked unit may be taken. I.e

 

Dark apostle of tzeentch

Khorne bezerkers

Slaanesh possessed

Nurgle oblits

Would mean you could add another marked unit for any god

 

But until each god was represented no repeat marks.

 

I'd like them to add lesser daemons back, possibly making them a mutable unit with options for wings, rending, a shooting attack, stat buffs etc Stat line would start around that of cultists but with the daemon usr, could be marked subject to the above restrictions.

 

Add daemon summoning back to icons, but only for the lesser daemons rather than those from codex daemons. Non marked units may take any of the available icons provided they take votlw.

 

Warlord traits.

 

'Propechy of Lorgar' one of the myriad prophecies of the daemon primarch of the word bearers mentions the warlord's accomplishments in years to come, he will not fall this day. Grants eternal warrior.

'Litanies of Hatred' the warlord led his warband in prayer before the battle, he may bestow the hatred usr to d3 units.

'Daemonancer' the warlord is an arch-summoner of daemons he may add or subtract 1 to the reserve rolls of any units with the daemon usr.

 

Just some ideas.

[totgeboren]

 

Pointing to the Sanctified as an example of mono-God Word Bearers is to me like pointing to the Knights of Blood and saying that the BA should have access to the Mark of Khorne. Heretics will be heretics.

 

???

 

The Sanctified are the Sanctified because they are Word Bearers who chose mono-cult over pantheon.

 

None of this negates that the Word Bearers worship as a pantheon system, the very nature of which meant mono-cults within and that even an "unaligned" individual would ask a specific god for specific favors from time to time. Tzeentch for safe travel through the warp, Slaanesh for charisma during the next sermon, etc.

 

Unless there's something in the background that I missed that says Abaddon is the only person allowed to appease more than one god since he's the only character/unit who can take multiple Marks.

 

The Sanctified are Word Bearer heretics. A supplement for the Word Bearers in no way needs to be able to represent the Sanctified (we have the basic codex for them), no more than the BA codex needs to be made with the Knights of Blood in mind.

 

I personally have come to terms with allowing marks within WB armies, though I personally call them 'blessings of X' or 'favour of X'. As AD-B said, they can change which God they seek favour from like the Romans of old, but as you can't change mark on a whim (background-wise), I just don't see them as marks, to make rules=background (otherwise the AD-B example doesn't work).

 

However, I definitely think Cult units should never be Troops in a WB army. Allow them as elites by all means, but as long as they are not troops, I'm fine with their inclusion. It's like the Kosovo war (I definitely do not mean any offence by this comparison, it's just the first that popped to mind, and it might be a bad one even).

Even if the Catholics and the Orthodox hated each other, they hated the Muslims more so joined forces. I don't see why the WB could not be pragmatic in the same sense. The Cult followers are heretics and deserve to be put to the flame, but they are not as bad as the followers of the false Emperor or the Xenos. 

[Smurfalypse]

Supplements do notrestrict your options, they are optional. So in

fact, you are being given another choice; even if that choice is to

restrict your options. So please, don't cry about having your options

restricted, or that you will play your men however you want... You can

use the Eldar codex for your Word Bearers, who can stop you when you

have the might of the Eldar codex.

 

#1. Not whining. This is all hypothetical, not real. He is not a developer nor are you.

#2. The fact is if a Word Bearer Supplement came out and I was playing Eldar as my Word Bearers I am actually playing Eldar. . . Not Word Bearers. Despite all of your "counts-as" talk, I am still playing Eldar when there is a Word Bearer book I could be using.

#3. None of the current Supplements restrict you in half the way he just mentioned in the original text. He basically is taking all of the fluff from one series he read and pouring it into text saying "This is how all Word Bearers are". This is what I am debating against. Because you see them the way they are in one series is not how any other Word Bearer Warband operates.

#4. Your last line makes this out as if I want more "power" or something. Check my record on Torrent of Fire at RTTs/NOVA Opens, I use CSM as my primary and still post a 75%+ win percentage in a competitive environment (not bragging, just pointing out the fact that I win with the current book). What Chaos needs is a fun book, not a power book, but immediately cutting 50% of the book out is not the answer to anything and is in fact a dense way to even think about how the Warbands operate.

 

To be honest the best way to show WB is literally to allow them to use units from the Daemon Codex in their CSM Detachments. So could take a unit of Plaguebearers as a troop choice in their CSM army (not as an ally). This would allow more Daemon units into their army and also maybe allow them to use the WB Icons in their units to deepstrike.

[Hellios]

 

Supplements do notrestrict your options, they are optional. So in

fact, you are being given another choice; even if that choice is to

restrict your options. So please, don't cry about having your options

restricted, or that you will play your men however you want... You can

use the Eldar codex for your Word Bearers, who can stop you when you

have the might of the Eldar codex.

 

#1. Not whining. This is all hypothetical, not real. He is not a developer nor are you.

#2. The fact is if a Word Bearer Supplement came out and I was playing Eldar as my Word Bearers I am actually playing Eldar. . . Not Word Bearers. Despite all of your "counts-as" talk, I am still playing Eldar when there is a Word Bearer book I could be using.

#3. None of the current Supplements restrict you in half the way he just mentioned in the original text. He basically is taking all of the fluff from one series he read and pouring it into text saying "This is how all Word Bearers are". This is what I am debating against. Because you see them the way they are in one series is not how any other Word Bearer Warband operates.

#4. Your last line makes this out as if I want more "power" or something. Check my record on Torrent of Fire at RTTs/NOVA Opens, I use CSM as my primary and still post a 75%+ win percentage in a competitive environment (not bragging, just pointing out the fact that I win with the current book). What Chaos needs is a fun book, not a power book, but immediately cutting 50% of the book out is not the answer to anything and is in fact a dense way to even think about how the Warbands operate.

 

To be honest the best way to show WB is literally to allow them to use units from the Daemon Codex in their CSM Detachments. So could take a unit of Plaguebearers as a troop choice in their CSM army (not as an ally). This would allow more Daemon units into their army and also maybe allow them to use the WB Icons in their units to deepstrike.

 

1) Well it matters, otherwise this thread is pointless. Also, I am a dev. Not for GW.

2) Not if you play the Word Bearers supplement... Then you are playing Word Bearers, you could play with the CSM codex and still not be playing Word Bearers.

3) I said criticism of the rules is fair, but restrictions in themselves are not bad. Too many restrictions just cause is not helpful in anyway, these restrictions mean I can't play half of the codices viable (and possibly fluffy) units is useful, especially if the supplement isn't replacing them with anything.

4) I don't give fig about your record. I don't really attend events at the moment, being in Asia puts me at least 10 hours away by plane from anything 'serious'. But I've done consistently well with most of the armies I've played with... And I've played against good players (People who have won, or placed well in national or regional events) in 'serious' games. My comment wasn't actually about power. My comment was more to do with you can do with your little men as you please. I picked Eldar because it is hard to imagine an army that is less like a Word Bearers force. I then made a joke that no one would be able to stop you from doing count-as with the Eldar codex, because the Eldar codex is 'so powerful'.

 

Also, I just want to be clear that my comment was directed at a number of people, covering different things for different people.

 

SHARE AND ENJOY!

[Rasclomalum]

Well then, options and not restrictions it is. 

 

It seems that several people in this thread are leaning towards cult troops always being elites in a WB army. This obviously reduces the value of the Chaos Lord and Chaos Sorcerer, who come with Master of Traitors and Master of the Rubricae respectively.  

 

Instead of flat out restricting people from running cult marines as troops, what about this: 

 

The most iconic Word Bearer unit on the books is the Dark Apostle, and these guys need a boost to function properly, so what if there was an option to replace Master of Traitors and Master of the Rubricae with an Apostle upgrade? 

 

Grand Apostle: 

 

The Chaos Lord loses Master of Traitors and gains the following: 

 

- Zealot

- Demagogue

- Beseech the Dark Gods

- Replaces his close combat weapon with an Accursed Crozius (power maul).

 

Additional options: 

 

- May replace his Accursed Crozius with an Infernal Sceptre (Thunder Hammer).... 15 points. 

 

- The Grand Apostle may replace his power armour, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades with Terminator Armour and Combi-bolter: 25 points.

 

Also gets the usual options like artifacts, combi-weapons and so on. The Infernal Sceptre is available to Grand Apostles in Terminator Armour for the same cost. 

 

And for the Sorcerers...

 

Daemonancer

 

The Sorcerer loses Master of the Rubricae and gains the following: 

 

- Zealot

- Demagogue

- Beseech the Dark Gods

- Replaces his force weapon with a Demoniac Crozius (force staff).

 

And then the usual slew of upgrades. 

 

Sharper minds than mine would have to calculate the cost for these upgrades. For the Chaos Lord, we're looking at 15 points for the Power Maul + whatever the Apostle rules are worth (regular Lords still get Fearless though), and probably a deduction for losing Master of Traitors. It would probably be cheaper for the Sorcerer since he doesn't replace a weapon (and would indeed be forced to take one variety). I'd be tempted to give Daemonancers access to Divination but that's just inviting angry glances. 

 

Giving the Grand Apostle the option to take a Thunder Hammer Crozius means he can still play the role of the respectable beatstick. 

 

Come to think of it, this is more like how Dark Apostles should have been done in the actual C:CSM codex...

 

 

EDIT: If the army contains a Grand Apostle or Daemonancer, that model has to be the Warlord (if your army contains more than one Grand Apostle or Daemonancer, pick one). Since more hosts than Marduk's had a Coryphaus I'd also lean towards the option for a Grand Apostle or Daemonancer to nominate another Independent Character (or maybe an Independent Character or a Character?) in the army as his Coryphaus, giving that model some extra oomph.   

[Smurfalypse]

 

 

Supplements do notrestrict your options, they are optional. So in

fact, you are being given another choice; even if that choice is to

restrict your options. So please, don't cry about having your options

restricted, or that you will play your men however you want... You can

use the Eldar codex for your Word Bearers, who can stop you when you

have the might of the Eldar codex.

 

#1. Not whining. This is all hypothetical, not real. He is not a developer nor are you.

#2. The fact is if a Word Bearer Supplement came out and I was playing Eldar as my Word Bearers I am actually playing Eldar. . . Not Word Bearers. Despite all of your "counts-as" talk, I am still playing Eldar when there is a Word Bearer book I could be using.

#3. None of the current Supplements restrict you in half the way he just mentioned in the original text. He basically is taking all of the fluff from one series he read and pouring it into text saying "This is how all Word Bearers are". This is what I am debating against. Because you see them the way they are in one series is not how any other Word Bearer Warband operates.

#4. Your last line makes this out as if I want more "power" or something. Check my record on Torrent of Fire at RTTs/NOVA Opens, I use CSM as my primary and still post a 75%+ win percentage in a competitive environment (not bragging, just pointing out the fact that I win with the current book). What Chaos needs is a fun book, not a power book, but immediately cutting 50% of the book out is not the answer to anything and is in fact a dense way to even think about how the Warbands operate.

 

To be honest the best way to show WB is literally to allow them to use units from the Daemon Codex in their CSM Detachments. So could take a unit of Plaguebearers as a troop choice in their CSM army (not as an ally). This would allow more Daemon units into their army and also maybe allow them to use the WB Icons in their units to deepstrike.

 

1) Well it matters, otherwise this thread is pointless. Also, I am a dev. Not for GW.

2) Not if you play the Word Bearers supplement... Then you are playing Word Bearers, you could play with the CSM codex and still not be playing Word Bearers.

3) I said criticism of the rules is fair, but restrictions in themselves are not bad. Too many restrictions just cause is not helpful in anyway, these restrictions mean I can't play half of the codices viable (and possibly fluffy) units is useful, especially if the supplement isn't replacing them with anything.

4) I don't give fig about your record. I don't really attend events at the moment, being in Asia puts me at least 10 hours away by plane from anything 'serious'. But I've done consistently well with most of the armies I've played with... And I've played against good players (People who have won, or placed well in national or regional events) in 'serious' games. My comment wasn't actually about power. My comment was more to do with you can do with your little men as you please. I picked Eldar because it is hard to imagine an army that is less like a Word Bearers force. I then made a joke that no one would be able to stop you from doing count-as with the Eldar codex, because the Eldar codex is 'so powerful'.

 

Also, I just want to be clear that my comment was directed at a number of people, covering different things for different people.

 

SHARE AND ENJOY!

 

 

1. This thread is pointless, cause none of us are Devs :P (for GW since apparently me being specific matters in this case, cause being a Dev for Hello Kitty Island Adventure means your opinon on what GW will do different than anyone elses). My debate has more to do with "you take x and cannot take a, b, c, d, z" mentality toward this topic.

2. If there is a WB Supplement and I am not playing it. . . Then I am not playing WB. Same as you are not playing Orks if you do not use the Ork Codex.

3. Restrictions are bad when they limit over half of a codex that already has severe limitation issues (said this a few times now). Forcing people to play the way "you" view WB is not the way of a Supplement. No supplements so far have done much to limit what you can do with your parent Codex, that is what we would expect in the future. Not a flat ban on all the things :P.

4. You brought up power levels and kinda hinted that's why we wanted something different than what this guy posted. I understand what you mean now, but your other post did not come across this way at all (to me least, that is now how I saw it, others may have viewed it differently).

 

Cept you quoted mine :P

I am not mad or being cantankerous, I view this as a healthy disagreement and listening to differnt points of view. Just wanted to claify so you do not think I am being testy (just a little sarcastic :P).

 

Well then, options and not restrictions it is. 

 

It seems that several people in this thread are leaning towards cult troops always being elites in a WB army. This obviously reduces the value of the Chaos Lord and Chaos Sorcerer, who come with Master of Traitors and Master of the Rubricae respectively.  

 

Instead of flat out restricting people from running cult marines as troops, what about this: 

 

The most iconic Word Bearer unit on the books is the Dark Apostle, and these guys need a boost to function properly, so what if there was an option to replace Master of Traitors and Master of the Rubricae with an Apostle upgrade? 

 

Grand Apostle: 

 

The Chaos Lord loses Master of Traitors and gains the following: 

 

- Zealot

- Demagogue

- Beseech the Dark Gods

- Replaces his close combat weapon with an Accursed Crozius (power maul).

 

Additional options: 

 

- May replace his Accursed Crozius with an Infernal Sceptre (Thunder Hammer).... 15 points. 

 

- The Grand Apostle may replace his power armour, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades with Terminator Armour and Combi-bolter: 25 points.

 

Also gets the usual options like artifacts, combi-weapons and so on. The Infernal Sceptre is available to Grand Apostles in Terminator Armour for the same cost. 

 

And for the Sorcerers...

 

Daemonancer

 

The Sorcerer loses Master of the Rubricae and gains the following: 

 

- Zealot

- Demagogue

- Beseech the Dark Gods

- Replaces his force weapon with a Demoniac Crozius (force staff).

 

And then the usual slew of upgrades. 

 

Sharper minds than mine would have to calculate the cost for these upgrades. For the Chaos Lord, we're looking at 15 points for the Power Maul + whatever the Apostle rules are worth (regular Lords still get Fearless though), and probably a deduction for losing Master of Traitors. It would probably be cheaper for the Sorcerer since he doesn't replace a weapon (and would indeed be forced to take one variety). I'd be tempted to give Daemonancers access to Divination but that's just inviting angry glances. 

 

Giving the Grand Apostle the option to take a Thunder Hammer Crozius means he can still play the role of the respectable beatstick. 

 

Come to think of it, this is more like how Dark Apostles should have been done in the actual C:CSM codex...

 

What about stuff that helps with Deamons or allows more Daemons to be used?

[Knight of the Raven]

@Rasclomalum: an accursed crozius is a crozius arcanum ritually desecrated by binding a daemon to it. A mere power maul might not fit nor be powerful enough.

 

I like the ideas in your post though.

[Rasclomalum]

 

What about stuff that helps with Deamons or allows more Daemons to be used?

 

Could perhaps be done by way of affecting the Warpstorm table and Daemonic Instability. Possibly the ability to make something like D3 models (including the Grand Apostle/Daemonancer) able to join units with Daemonic Instability, though making them exempt from its effects. 

 

Don't know, this would mean rules that specifically target Battle Brothers, but it makes some sense. 

 

Another option is allowing for daemons to be summoned in some way. 

 

 

 

@Rasclomalum: an accursed crozius is a crozius arcanum ritually desecrated by binding a daemon to it. A mere power maul might not fit nor be powerful enough.

 

I like the ideas in your post though.

 

I'd agree, but an Accursed Crozius is a power maul as far as rules are concerned. I'd also like them to be more powerful, which is why I included a Thunder Hammer variety for the Lord. Allowing Sorcerers Force Thunder Hammers would probably be a smidge silly though. 

 

Oh, and thank you! :-)

[totgeboren]

Daemons are not part of CSM anymore (with the exception of some half-daemons like Possessed and the daemon engines).

I don't think we will see any rules that helps any CSM faction better interact with daemons. I think supplements are made to supplement one codex.

If WB would get a supplement, it would probably be about Dark Apostles, Possessed and Cultists.

 

I mean, between the latest codices and FAQs GW went out of their way to nerf any interaction between CSM and CD. I mean, SM and Tau work better as allies than CSM and Daemons now...

 

That's also why I don't think we will see a book on for example Khorne that deals with both Khorne marines and Khorne daemons. It either or. Either a supplement for CSM or a supplement for CD.

 

I might be wrong, but I just don't see GW doing a cross-codex supplement. 

[Slave to Darkness]

Daemons are not part of CSM anymore (with the exception of some half-daemons like Possessed and the daemon engines).

I don't think we will see any rules that helps any CSM faction better interact with daemons. I think supplements are made to supplement one codex.

If WB would get a supplement, it would probably be about Dark Apostles, Possessed and Cultists.

 

I mean, between the latest codices and FAQs GW went out of their way to nerf any interaction between CSM and CD. I mean, SM and Tau work better as allies than CSM and Daemons now...

 

That's also why I don't think we will see a book on for example Khorne that deals with both Khorne marines and Khorne daemons. It either or. Either a supplement for CSM or a supplement for CD.

 

I might be wrong, but I just don't see GW doing a cross-codex supplement. 

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/03/rumors-white-dwarf-rules-returning-soon.html

 

i know they are talking about fantasy, and i know its probably gonna be a load of crap but...

[Smurfalypse]

Daemons are not part of CSM anymore (with the exception of some half-daemons like Possessed and the daemon engines).

I don't think we will see any rules that helps any CSM faction better interact with daemons. I think supplements are made to supplement one codex.

If WB would get a supplement, it would probably be about Dark Apostles, Possessed and Cultists.

 

I mean, between the latest codices and FAQs GW went out of their way to nerf any interaction between CSM and CD. I mean, SM and Tau work better as allies than CSM and Daemons now...

 

That's also why I don't think we will see a book on for example Khorne that deals with both Khorne marines and Khorne daemons. It either or. Either a supplement for CSM or a supplement for CD.

 

I might be wrong, but I just don't see GW doing a cross-codex supplement. 

 

 

I am not so sure, there have been rumors floating about for a while no about mono books that use both CSM/Daemons together as one force. I think we may end up seeing something like this in the future, but who really knows so far. Another ping in the favor of this is all the Imperial books being used together and some not even taking up an ally slot (Inquisition, Knights), it may be "our" thing to mix the two books together.

 

I think we would see something like this (mixed supplement) over seeing another Supplement with Possessed being featured. Just my opinion though.

 

CSM and Daemons work really really well together actually. Character cannot join each others units and such but how the different units work together has great synergy to it.