Max Power Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Hello Brothers, I'm Max Power, and I'm a treadhead. The Horus Heresy rule set really lends itself to some serious tank heavy lists and battles, unlike it's 40k counterpart, and as a result of the increased amount of tanks in my lists, I find myself making up any sort of tactics as I go. I wanted to put some thoughts down to compare notes with other tank commanders, as well as get some input from the community on how they use their tanks, and how they go about defeating them. My general list revolves around 3 Land Raiders with infantry inside (Armored Spearhead Rite of War), and 3-4 Sicaran Battle Tanks (using the Onslaught optional FOC). My expertise, if you can call it that, really is limited to these vehicles and the experience I've had fighting against others. In general, the infantry packed Land Raiders act as linebreakers and objective claimers. Land Raiders have proven invaluable time and time again as both mobile cover and overwatch for both my infantry and lighter tanks, and as bunkers for my infantry to stay in until threats to them have been dealt with. In my experience, I've run across less melta in the 30k world, but an increase in lascannon weaponry. I will typically use terrain to provide any of my tanks with some sort of cover save until these anti-tank measures have been removed. The Sicaran Battle Tank is a tank commander's dream: fast, well armored, and well armed - in keeping with the main battle tanks of today. I typically run two of a 'destructor' build with heavy bolters for hunting infantry and light vehicles, and two of an 'annihilator' build with lascannons for more serious vehicle hunting. I love the versatility of the main cannon. It has a high enough volume of fire to be a difference maker against infantry, and it's strong enough to defeat any armor in the game with a rend roll. Being fast vehicles, they are tremendously effective against all enemies. I've had great success using the Sicaran to seek and destroy both static and mobile threats to my vehicles. While I'm inclined to always keep them moving, I've learned that it's easy to move them into a position where they're vulnerable. AV 13 is fairly durable for front armor, but most enemy commanders will pounce as soon as they get a look at the side armor. Sicarans are definitely a high priority target, and tend to live longer when deployed in pairs. My experience with Predators has been almost entirely from an enemy commander's perspective. While slower and less armed and armored than their Sicaran counterparts, I believe they have their place. Being able to take squadrons of three gives you the opportunity to field a mass of tanks that no opponent is going to easily break through. That being said, I would advise against taking them with a Flamestorm or Magna-Melta cannon, as their short range is going to hamper you significantly. Firstly, the Predator is not able to move fast and shoot these weapons, causing you to have turns where your tank is just a moving box. Secondly, the shorter range is more likely going to force you to expose the weak side armor of the predator, making it vulnerable to more mundane weapons like the heavy bolter. I see great value in any of the other weapons, as they allow you to take advantage their range, and keep your tanks contributing longer. As a result of their more static use, deploying a Predator with cover and good fields of fire is critical. This is what I have at the moment, brothers. I welcome all discussion and different points of view anyone may have! Regards, Max Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288571-calling-all-treadheads/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Agree with your Sicarian points :) I regularly field 9+ Predators and find they can put a huge amount of firepower downrange with their Improved Autocannons at a reasonable points cost and while supported with a Librarian can easily blast most aircraft from the skies too :)Oh and Spartans, if you dont take a flare shield youre a fool, they are basically unkillable with them bar D-Weapons! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288571-calling-all-treadheads/#findComment-3632655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 The one tank I field without fail is my Spartan. I've had games where it's soaked up 20+ Lascannon / Laser Destroyer shots without even a singed hull. You need to slam them into your enemy quick to ram the contents (Cataphractii with me) down their throat, then you have the added advantage of the 4 Twin-Linked Lascannons to sow mayhem while the passengers are tearing into the enemy. Great tank, definitely not cheap if you kit it out correctly, but it's well worth it. I plan on getting two more, actually. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288571-calling-all-treadheads/#findComment-3632679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted March 26, 2014 Author Share Posted March 26, 2014 The Spartan is an absolute beast, I played against one in a larger point game. My longer range anti-tank weapons were almost totally useless, while it's lascannons were free to wreak havoc. Ultimately, I was able to knock it out with a Knight in close combat. Close combat kills on the Spartan would seem like they'd meet with more success. Melta-toting support squads, or terminators with chainfists would do the trick. At that range, though, you're either going to have to fight through what the Spartan is carrying to get to it, which is more than likely going to be tough on it's own, or just accept that whatever you dedicate to killing the tank is going to get wiped out. I'd love to hear if other commanders have had success against the Spartan, and how it was achieved. I've been looking at the Sicaran Venator as a possible answer without using a suicide squad. I would start sweating immediately if I saw someone roll up to the table with more than one, DuskRaider. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288571-calling-all-treadheads/#findComment-3633406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Grav guns and Chainfists are my usual approach with the Alphas, Medusas tend to crack in right open too ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288571-calling-all-treadheads/#findComment-3633524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Treadhead checking in. I think DCCW, Chainfists, Meltabombs, and Medusas are all appropriate answers to Spartans. Have to remember that barrage always hits side armor, so it will ignore the Flare Shield. S10 AP2 Ordnance is not kind to AV14. I haven't gotten to field one or mass Land Raiders. The games I play are usually too small for that. Personally, I'm not terribly upset. I know the design harkens back to the British Mark I/II/III/etc tanks, but I just think the sponson-only armament is dumb. I think sponsons in general are dumb. I'd rather they rolled that firepower into the turret weapons or something. But I won't get on that soapbox here. I think it's a total waste to field Sicarans with heavy bolter sponsons. That main gun is just too good to be spending its time shooting infantry, and heavy bolters just aren't good enough to be anti-infantry. S5 AP4 for killing tac marines that might very well have FNP? Useless. You'll toss out 9 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds. 2.666 of those will be saved by armor, another .444 will be saved if the squad has an Apothecary. The math isn't much better for the main gun, which will statistically only get one rend per turn (which is not high enough strength to bypass FNP). You are actually, statistically, better off shooting those marines (or terminators) with the lascannons. You'll deny the FNP save and the armor save. They could have a cover save (or invul if they're terminators), of course, but really. The lascannons are better. Unless it's a Venator. Then don't bother with the lascannons, because the main gun will make them useless by being ordnance. If you fight a lot of non-MEQ opponents, though, orks/eldar/tau/guard, things with 4+ or 5+ saves, then maybe you'll get some use out of the HBs. But if you're sticking to HH battles, then you're fighting marines, which heavy bolters are of almost no use against. Flamestorm and Magnamelta predators can be made to work if you give them machine spirit, but that's... pretty useless, too. Outside of 9 inches, A vindicator is better than the magnamelta predator and basically the same price, and inside of 9 inches the advantage the magnamelta has is debatable. Flamestorm cannon can be useful against marines, but it's a death sentence for the Predator to use it. Get that close and you'll get 20 krak grenades up the tailpipe. Best weapons are the Executioner and the Predator Cannon - I think the Heavy Conversion Beamer is too niche to be very useful in general terms, but in a larger game on a larger table it could make some great fire support. I have the same antipathy towards heavy bolters on Predators. They're good on an Executioner because it'll be shooting at infantry anyway, they're cheap, and they offer the expensive and powerful main gun protection from weapon destroyed results. The autocannon is best paired with lascannons like on the Sicaran. I love Sicarans, and they're an easy include in a lot of lists. But I'm liking Predators more and more lately. They're cheaper, almost as good, just as tough if you keep them out of melee and protect the sides, and you can have a lot more of them in a single HS slot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288571-calling-all-treadheads/#findComment-3633558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
awfulawful Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 And then this came along... http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/falchion.html Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288571-calling-all-treadheads/#findComment-3634019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
infyrana Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 That thing should be called a Fellchion! Talking of Tread Heading ... there's currently an army list thread sporting some Medusa's. What is everyone's take on these and their associated upgrades or phosphex options ? Personally I went with double Sicaran's with LasC sponsons, just needing to find myself a Spartan to add to the collection. Yet to try them out sadly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288571-calling-all-treadheads/#findComment-3634058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted March 26, 2014 Author Share Posted March 26, 2014 I'm speechless. I've wanted Forge World to borrow from the WWII tank aesthetic more for a while now, and they've now given me a JagdTiger...in spaaaaaace! infyrana - I love the idea of Medusas with Phosphex shells, as they provide you with something every army in 30k should have: a means of clearing large groups of marines quickly. I think artillery is pretty undervalued in the 30k universe. A battery of Phosphex-toting Medusas would rank pretty high on my 'Oh sweet Emperor, kill it now' list. The only drawback that really sticks out to me is the 36" range on the main gun. I would imagine your opponent would have a pretty easy time guessing where you're going to stick them on the board, and either deploying to avoid, or deploying to engage quickly. kitwulfen - Thank you for bringing up some differing viewpoints. I'm going to try the Sicarans purely with lascannons the next time I roll them out to see if I meet with more success. I totally see value in some of the variants of the Predator, as they're reasonably priced. Had I not gone the Sicaran route, I'd love to try the Russian T-34 approach to tank warfare and just bring maxed out squadrons of autocannon Predators. Loving the coversation, brothers. New viewpoints are so much more welcome than just theory-hammering during my daily commute. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288571-calling-all-treadheads/#findComment-3634400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Blast Weapons against a Flare Shield equipped vehicle are at -2 STR. Just wanted to point that out. Doesn't matter if they hit the side armor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288571-calling-all-treadheads/#findComment-3634811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Blast Weapons against a Flare Shield equipped vehicle are at -2 STR. Just wanted to point that out. Doesn't matter if they hit the side armor. "A flare shield operates against shooting attacks that strike the vehicle's front arc. It reduces the strength of attacks by weapons with the Template or Blast type by -2, and other shooting attacks' Strength by -1." - Betrayal page 239, Flare Shield "Hits against vehicles are always resolved against their side armor." - BRB page 34, barrage rules Emphasis mine. It really, really matters if it hits side armor, because if it does then the Flare shield has no effect at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288571-calling-all-treadheads/#findComment-3634905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molokai Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Thanks for clearing that up Kitwulfen, I had no idea where he got that from. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288571-calling-all-treadheads/#findComment-3634910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 BAH! You're right. Edit: Luckily I have not come across barrage weapons in 30K yet. My buddy picked up a Typhon, however... so this could mean bad news for my baby. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288571-calling-all-treadheads/#findComment-3634966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Nah, Typhon is just No Cover Saves, not barrage. Honestly, if you just Front Towards Enemy with the Spartan, the Typhon isn't a problem. Unless it rams your Spartan. Or, y'know, just trades paint in a little fender bender. Typhon paint is very heavy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288571-calling-all-treadheads/#findComment-3635216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Ive used Medusas a few times but due to high cost of Siege masters and the Land Raider heavy meta ive not used phosphex yet :( They create absolute carnage and can be handily hidden behind Forts ;) Thanks to my army being dug in Iron Warriors, the enemy handily come to me, making the range less of an issue :DThe Falchion is nice, but FW are infamous for making Tank destroyers toothless :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288571-calling-all-treadheads/#findComment-3635377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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