Primarch Weapon Variety (or lack thereof)

[Mazryonh]

I always did think that the lack of weapon variety among the 18 Primarchs was a bit silly.  As an example let's go over the melee loadouts for the Primarchs who have had FW rules released for them:

 

III: Fulgrim - Fireblade/Laeran Daemonblade (Swords)

 

VIII: Konrad Curze - Mercy and Forgiveness (Lightning Claws)

 

X: Ferrus Mannus - Forgebreaker (Warhammer)

 

XII: Angron - Gorefather/Gorechild (Chainaxes)

 

XIV: Mortarion - Silence (Power Scythe)

 

XVI: Horus - Worldbreaker/Warmaster's Talon (Warhammer and Lightning Claw)

 

XVII: Lorgar Aurelian - Illuminarium (Power Maul)

 

XVIII: Vulkan - Dawnbringer (Warhammer)

 

That makes 3 Primarchs with FW rules so far who use Warhammers (4 if you count Perturabo who "inherited" Forgebreaker), and 2 who use Lightning Claws (3 if you count Corax, who does not yet have a FW rules or model, but has shown up in fluff and art using them).  Angron, Mortarion, and Lorgar get a pass because they have "signature weapons types" for each of them.  Lion El'Jonson, Sanguinius, and Jaghatai Khan have been depicted using Swords as well, making for a total of 4 sword-using Primarchs, 5 if you count the Emperor and his "Burning Blade."  Even Roboute Gulliman's dual Power Fists could be matched by Ferrus Mannus' Necrodermis Fists (which have similar stats).

 

This to me, sounds more than a tad unimaginative.  The real world has not had any lack of imagination when it comes to battlefield-capable melee weapons, some of the less common types GW could have used for inspiration.  I'm surprised that even Horus, what with all the talk of his Legion being "the point of the spear," didn't get an actual spear or halberd as his "signature weapon."  Maybe it could be called the "Justaerin Spear" or something like that.  The Alpha Legion's Primarchs, given their iconography's whole emphasis on the 3-headed Hydra, could use a three-headed flail-type weapon too.

 

Anyone else here have ideas of more "signature weapons" the Primarchs could have used, or made conversions for them? 

 

Before anyone tells me to "just convert the models to anything you want," I still think the (easily-remedied) lack of weapon variety on GW's part here doesn't speak well to their creative ability right now.

[Conn Eremon]

Diversity isn't the same thing as creativity.

 

Similarity isn't the same thing as unimaginative.

[A D-B]

I always did think that the lack of weapon variety among the 18 Primarchs was a bit silly.  As an example let's go over the melee loadouts for the Primarchs who have had FW rules released for them:

 

III: Fulgrim - Fireblade/Laeran Daemonblade (Swords)

 

VIII: Konrad Curze - Mercy and Forgiveness (Lightning Claws)

 

X: Ferrus Mannus - Forgebreaker (Warhammer)

 

XII: Angron - Gorefather/Gorechild (Chainaxes)

 

XIV: Mortarion - Silence (Power Scythe)

 

XVI: Horus - Worldbreaker/Warmaster's Talon (Warhammer and Lightning Claw)

 

XVII: Lorgar Aurelian - Illuminarium (Power Maul)

 

XVIII: Vulkan - Dawnbringer (Warhammer)

 

That makes 3 Primarchs with FW rules so far who use Warhammers (4 if you count Perturabo who "inherited" Forgebreaker), and 2 who use Lightning Claws (3 if you count Corax, who does not yet have a FW rules or model, but has shown up in fluff and art using them).  Angron, Mortarion, and Lorgar get a pass because they have "signature weapons types" for each of them.  Lion El'Jonson, Sanguinius, and Jaghatai Khan have been depicted using Swords as well, making for a total of 4 sword-using Primarchs, 5 if you count the Emperor and his "Burning Blade."  Even Roboute Gulliman's dual Power Fists could be matched by Ferrus Mannus' Necrodermis Fists (which have similar stats).

 

This to me, sounds more than a tad unimaginative.  The real world has not had any lack of imagination when it comes to battlefield-capable melee weapons, some of the less common types GW could have used for inspiration.  I'm surprised that even Horus, what with all the talk of his Legion being "the point of the spear," didn't get an actual spear or halberd as his "signature weapon."  Maybe it could be called the "Justaerin Spear" or something like that.

 

That's very... literal, don't you think? Horus's weapon has nothing to do with a military tactic favoured by his Legion. I mean, 40K has a billion blunt and literal motifs like that, but are they something new lore should aspire to? It's very on the nose, no? And then you're actually compounding your problem, because Sanguinius and Russ are both noted as using spears.

 

Plus, Horus has been marked with those weapons since forever. Giving him a spear "just because" seems pretty weak.

 

  The Alpha Legion's Primarchs, given their iconography's whole emphasis on the 3-headed Hydra, could use a three-headed flail-type weapon too.

 

Anyone else here have ideas of more "signature weapons" the Primarchs could have used, or made conversions for them? 

 

Before anyone tells me to "just convert the models to anything you want," I still think the (easily-remedied) lack of weapon variety on GW's part here doesn't speak well to their creative ability right now.

 

Might be worth looking over your phrasing there, unless we stand at the edge of a new dawn of desperately seeking things to condescend to and look down upon. I don't even want to know the thought process that reads those FW books - with the new campaigns, characters, unit types, new names, new insignias, new lore, and everything else - and honestly, truly thinks a "lack of weapon variety" with primarchs using iconic versions of Space Marine weaponry "doesn't speak well to the writer's creative ability".

 

Phrasing is everything. Interesting points (and uninteresting ones alike) can be lost in conversation that turns pointlessly unpleasant in the attempt to raise sympathetic vitriol.

 

I think that's enough forumming for me for a few days. Good luck with this one, guys!

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

The thing is, the Primarchs have a huge range of weaponry - they will have received these from: Other Primarchs (Vulkan & Fulgrim are noted as having done this, & Ferrus seems to be making weaponry for all his brothers); possibly the Emperor himself (i.e Worldbreaker); the myriad Magos of the Mechanicum; cultural weapons they have had crafted from their homeworld's traditions; the thousands of worlds they have pacified in the name of the Imperium; the huge range of other Imperial officials / commanders they fight alongside; the Astartes of their own Legion; Legions they fight alongside, etc.

 

Of course they each have signature weapons that have become an intrinsic part of their background - Forgebreaker isn't just some hammer - it is a physical representation of his bond with Fulgrim. And fans would be in outrage if FW didn't depict the Primarchs with these signature weapons. But if you like the idea of Horus with a spear, I'm sure he wielded a spear at some point in the Crusade. And yes, swords will be the most common weapons amongst their number, but the Great Crusade has been fought on battlefields that have varied so much, versitality is probably pretty important - and the sword is the most versatile close combat weapon.

 

There is a huge range of variety of weapons the Primarchs used - they just used different ones at different times.

[BassWave]

Of all the things to complain about in this hobby...

[Týr]

 

 

Sanguinius and Russ are both noted as using spears.

 

Please don't let Russ or Sanguinius end up with a spear. I think i might just die if the rules and models end up with them having spears instead of swords. 

[Balthamal]

Honestly, it doesn't really matter what weapons they carry so long as the models look awesome. And so what if a bunch of them carry warhammers/swords? Go google swords and look at the amount of variety there. We're talking dozens at the very least. Can you see The Lion Sword or Russ' Mjolnir being the same? I certainly can't. When you break it down, there's only really 5 types of weapons used in close combat: blades/axes/polearms/maces/fists with the occasional oddity like a whip. 18 does not fit into 6 when all is said and done..

[Mahoo]

Tyr - I wouldn't worry about it, the outcry if Russ didn't have his massive blade would be astronomical.

I'm certain theirs been references to Primarchs using allsorts of different weapons, Corax uses a Power Whip in Deliverence lost (Which I hope FW model him with, I don't care about dual lighting claws, a power whip sounds awesome).

 

I'm sure Dorn's recorded as using a chainsword and bolter most of the time as well (massively upscaled versions obviously)

Theirs also the myriad random unique equipment and pistols they all use, Mortarion's chem grenades and the Lantern. Perturabo's wrist mounted bolter with it's crazy ammunition.

It would also be worth taking into account the variety of blades in use. Fulgrim's blades have always been slender duelist's blades. The Khan's will no doubt be a sabre or a scimitar while Johnson will be rocking a broadsword.

In terms of FW producing the variation, think of the costs. They're already expensive models, can you imagine the cost of modeling different weapons and no doubt arms to hold them, all while having to ensure that the pose suits both weapons.

As much as I'd prefer Corax to be armed with his whip, I'd much rather they make an awesome model with a pair of claws, rather than a sub-par model with an optional whip that makes the pose look unnatural.

[WGXH]

There is a delightful section on the short story "The Lion" where Gav Thorpe describes the title character's armoury.

 

It was clearly a wiki-walk on medival weaponry. I imagine most Primarchs have similarly exhaustive and difficult to read armouries.

[Russ Brother 92]

I'd love to have the option of Sanguinius with a Spear - perhaps once they've done all of their 'exemplar' weapons then we could have a short section on various other weapons they are earmakred as using throughout the Heresy and Scouring :) would love to see the Spear of Russ as an option, or Horus with his sword etc. etc. - but no I don't feel that having the Primarchs with their (very unique) weapons makes them LESS unique... it makes them more so.

[Ace Debonair]

I actually quite like that the Primarch's taste in weapons is so similar, but it's hard for me to explain why.

It's like - all the Legions' basic troops use bolters, for example, so it sort of makes sense* for the Primarchs to have similar weapons, if you see what I mean. It's like having epic melee weapons is tied to the rank of Primarch, in a way.

*For a given value of sense, of course - this is 40K 30K after all!

That said, I'm loving the idea of a three-headed flail / Morningstar for Alpha Legion champions. Maybe even with little dragon or snake-shaped heads instead of the usual spiked ball, although that might be going too far

From my (admittedly very limited) experience, mace-and-chain is rather trickier to use properly than swords and the like - a perfect choice for a Legion who go to great lengths just to show their superiority!

[GhostMalone]

The spear of sanguinus is a thing I'd like that aesthetic

[Blindhamster]

An option for the spear maybe... but he traditionally has his sword, the one that was originally part of a pair with the sword horus had prior to becoming Warmaster.

[DaEntireMac]

I thought that Corax only had one lightning claw? 

 

Lightning claw, power whip and a heavy bolter, isn't it?

[Noserenda]

Sure there are a lot of weapons out there, most of them are obscure precisely because they arent very useful generally... Theres a good reason Swords and Spears are so prevalent! 

[Emperor's Furor]

I thought that Corax only had one lightning claw? 

 

Lightning claw, power whip and a heavy bolter, isn't it?

Only after he lost his other claw when it was held by Curze.

 

If it helps Roboute should have a pair of power fists, although how he duels both Lorgar and Angron whilst wearing them sounds pretty weird.

[DaEntireMac]

 

I thought that Corax only had one lightning claw? 

 

Lightning claw, power whip and a heavy bolter, isn't it?

Only after he lost his other claw when it was held by Curze.

 

If it helps Roboute should have a pair of power fists, although how he duels both Lorgar and Angron whilst wearing them sounds pretty weird.

Oh ok, that makes sense.

[Wade Garrett]

The real world has not had any lack of imagination when it comes to battlefield-capable melee weapons...

 

Anyone who mentions "real world battlefield capable weapons" and "three headed flail" in the same paragraph is...I'll be charitable, a bit ill informed on how most armies tended to define 'battlefield capable'.

 

Hint:

Being more likely to kill the wielder and any allies standing by him than the enemy is the opposite of battlefield capable.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

There is a delightful section on the short story "The Lion" where Gav Thorpe describes the title character's armoury.

 

It was clearly a wiki-walk on medival weaponry. I imagine most Primarchs have similarly exhaustive and difficult to read armouries.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that. I read the description of the Lion's armoury and thought, he's just wikipediad "melee weapons" and practically transcribed it into his story. Similarly the encounters with daemons on the ship is like a Codex Daemons shopping list. Guilliman has also been described as having an extensive personal armoury. The only ones I can see not having such a collection are perhaps Angron (Gorefather, Gorechild, 'nuff said), the Khan (he seems more about skills and experience than objects - I imagine him being interested in the enemy's fighting style rather than the tools themselves)  and Mortarion (he disdains ornamentation and unnecessary excess, preferring to stick with tried and true tools).

 

I think it would be completely out of character for Alpharius/Omegon to have signature weapons. They would not be unduly attached to a specific weapon but change as the circumstances dictate. We have seen instances where Sheed Ranko played Alpharius and was armed only with a bolter but even his own legionnaries did not question if he was the primarch.

 

 

I thought that Corax only had one lightning claw? 

 

Lightning claw, power whip and a heavy bolter, isn't it?

 

I believe that is an armament of necessity/opportunity rather than choice. He started the battle at the Dropsite with a pair of claws but lost one and scavanged the whip and heavy bolter from the battlefield.

 

On the original post, I disagree with the generalisations. Just because Fulgrim, Russ, the Lion and Sanguinius wield swords it does not mean that they are armed the same, each blade has very different characteristics and cultural influences. To arm every Primarch differently smacks of variation for variation's sake.

 

You could also think of the weapon types as corresponding the the general nature of Primarchs. Primarchs are generally powerful aggressive direct combatants and so weapons based around bludgeoning and chopping suit them.

 

[DuskRaider]

So... you want them to have weapons based on their Legion theme? What is this, Power Rangers?

[Greyall]

Twin bear-traps for Angron...

 

 

I could actually see a many-headed coil working for the Alpha twins.

[Krikey]

If you really want to talk about real world variety, nearly every pre-modern firearm era general wielded a sword. Not a three-headed flail, nor a brandistock, nor even a warhammer. A sword. Giving the primarchs all differing signature weapons seems very similar to the attempt of the writers of a children's program to make it simpler for the attention-deficited audience to tell the difference between characters (e.g. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles).

 

The existing primarch weapons work very nicely. I don't think any of them would decide to use a sub-par weapon simply because they wanted to stand out. They use the most powerful (and/or fear-inspiring) weapon available on the planets to which they were dispersed.

 

I can't imagine any of them would think, "Zounds! Sanguinus, Lion'El, and Khan wield swords! I must have something different! I'm going to use ... AN EXPLODING YO-YO!!! just to stand out!"

 

~K

[Mahoo]

 

 

I can't imagine any of them would think, "Zounds! Sanguinus, Lion'El, and Khan wield swords! I must have something different! I'm going to use ... AN EXPLODING YO-YO!!! just to stand out!"

 

~K

 

That sounds like an awesome excuse for a digital weapon

[reckoning]

I agree with everyone's points but perhaps we can tone down the snarky remarks a bit?

 

On the topic of A/O, I got the impression that they always used whatever would prevent them from standing out.

[Wade Garrett]

I can't imagine any of them would think, "Zounds! Sanguinus, Lion'El, and Khan wield swords! I must have something different! I'm going to use ... AN EXPLODING YO-YO!!! just to stand out!"

 

~K

To be fair, that train of thought seems as if it could easily fit on Fulgrim or Alpharius's mind rails.

 

As far as weapon variety goes, Rob of Maccrage has used:

 

A lightning claw and bolter (Know No Fear)

 

Twin powerfists

(Betrayer)

 

A shield and gladius

(Unremembered Empire)

 

A bust of Konor Guilliman

(Also in Unremembered Empire)

 

Quoth the Battle King:

"Specialization is for insects."

;)