Primarch Weapon Variety (or lack thereof)

[GhostMalone]

So let's all just say any weapon goes but Sang needs a spear in a landing from flight pose and hurling the spear pose whilst in his other hand is a sleek beautifull sword.

[Haywire]

On the subject of the A+O rules. I liked the idea that was used by the Tempus Fugit group a good few years ago. I can't remember what rules they used exactly, but it worked something along the lines of...

 

Keep A/O in reserve. At any point in the game (And only once in the game for obvious reasons), one of your models can loudly declare "I'm Alpharius!", and is promptly replaced by a completely fresh Alpharius (So, any wounds that model may have taken are discounted), and said Alpharius will simply use the weapons of whatever model he's replacing.

 

It's a little like the Dark Elf assassins from Warhammer Fantasy back in the day.

[Wade Garrett]

Or samurai for that matter. But enough beating up on Perrin, he does make a valid point. Astartes really have no need for spears given their usual tactics.

Not even, say, the Iron Warriors, Death Guard, or Imperial Fists?

 

Not every Legion sprinted around the battlefield around on Jump Packs and Land Speeders yelling "Gotta go fast!", you know?

[Greyall]

The Ultramarines' tactic against the World Eaters in Betrayer reminded me of greek tactics with a spear, except they used, well, bolters: close shield ranks, open and fire, close again. Truth be told, if an enemy is  within spear-range in 40K, might as well close the distance and chainshave him.

 

It's a curious thing about 40K: though people wield scythes, gigantic flails, chainsaws and all kinds of impractical weapons, spears (which are somewhat more conventional) are only given to the more elite troops, like Grey Knights and Custodes. And they're not used in the phalanx way, but spun and wielded expertly in close melee quarters. Rule of cool is a wonderful thing.

 

On Alpharius, I fully imagine him to carry a sort of Apothecary-like 'box-of-surprises' gauntlet alongside a more conventional weapon. Give him more than a little trouble a noxious fume/poisoned dart/super laser/stasis beam will end the duel.

[Wade Garrett]

I do think Alpharius would have a signature weapon.

 

And yes, that would make it easier for the enemy to pick him out on the battlefield.

 

Let me rephrase that:

The enemy can tell "Alpharius" is Alpharius because who else but Alpharius would wield "Alpharius's" shiny unique weapon?

[Inquisitor Kravin]

It's a curious thing about 40K: though people wield scythes, gigantic flails, chainsaws and all kinds of impractical weapons, spears (which are somewhat more conventional) are only given to the more elite troops, like Grey Knights and Custodes. And they're not used in the phalanx way, but spun and wielded expertly in close melee quarters. Rule of cool is a wonderful thing.

 

I think people are underestimating the versatility of the spear. When you say "spear" our cultural heritage means we think of long spears/pikes being used by infantry blocks because the weapon is too cumbersome to cover all approaches and so there is a wall of stabbing points. Various cultures have used shorter spears as individual melee weapons and the spear can actually serve as a combination of both staff and sword, for blocking, bludgeoning and stabbing. The shaft of the spear isn't just a thing to connect the warrior's hands to the stabby bit on the end, it is itself and effective part of the weapon.

 

A quick YouTube search reveals plenty of videos like this:

 

Watch some of those and come back and tell me honestly you wouldn't want to see Sanguinius doing that as he's charged by a horde of traitors at the gates of the Imperial Palace. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I have to admit that I never thought of the spear as a good weapon for individual combat until I watched Troy.  The duel between Hector and Achilles starts off with personal combat with shield and spear, and, while a product of Hollywood which can make just about anything look cool, it does come off, well, cool.

[Greyall]

@Kravin: I was thinking of that discipline while writing about the way spears are used by the Imperium. Custodes might not practice it per se, but it's the closest comparison, to my knowledge. What I meant is, in the grimdark future, that's the only way spears are used by Mankind. I still haven't seen a phalanx or line of soldiers employing spears as, say, the Spartans did.

 

@Wade: Blame written text, I can't actually figure out if you're serious about being in favour of Alpharius having a unique weapon.

 

My guess is that FW's Alpharius mini will be completely distinguishable from a run-of-the-mill Legionary, he'll be in his ceremonial plate - which, granted, might still be discrete.. But sure, make the unique weapon digital and completely hidden underneath a gauntlet. The Alphas were big on concealment, of course, but I'm sure they'd also employ surprise and out-of-the-box thinking once the fighting began.

[Russ Brother 92]

Or samurai for that matter. But enough beating up on Perrin, he does make a valid point. Astartes really have no need for spears given their usual tactics.

 

However, if a primarch can wield a scythe, power whip, and/or what basically amounts to huge, powered pantera claws, I see no reason why he couldnt also use the actually functional spear.

 

Heh! Pantera claws :D I think dime would approve...

[Wade Garrett]

Let me see if I can make that clearer:

 

Yes, I think the guy standing beneath Alpha Legion banners while pointing and issuing commands, the one that is obviously in charge, that guy would have a unique Primarch weapon to mark him as the XX Primarch.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

@Kravin: I was thinking of that discipline while writing about the way spears are used by the Imperium. Custodes might not practice it per se, but it's the closest comparison, to my knowledge. What I meant is, in the grimdark future, that's the only way spears are used by Mankind. I still haven't seen a phalanx or line of soldiers employing spears as, say, the Spartans did.

 

Ever read Brothers of the Snake?  Because that has a literal phalanx of Space Marine using spears against an ork horde.

[Greyall]

@Wade: Clear, then. And in agreement.

 

@Ferrum: I did not, mate, thanks for enlightenment. So there are 'conventional' uses to a spear, in the 41st Millenium =)

[Scyld Fireblade]

 

I always did think that the lack of weapon variety among the 18 Primarchs was a bit silly.  As an example let's go over the melee loadouts for the Primarchs who have had FW rules released for them:

 

III: Fulgrim - Fireblade/Laeran Daemonblade (Swords)

 

VIII: Konrad Curze - Mercy and Forgiveness (Lightning Claws)

 

X: Ferrus Mannus - Forgebreaker (Warhammer)

 

XII: Angron - Gorefather/Gorechild (Chainaxes)

 

XIV: Mortarion - Silence (Power Scythe)

 

XVI: Horus - Worldbreaker/Warmaster's Talon (Warhammer and Lightning Claw)

 

XVII: Lorgar Aurelian - Illuminarium (Power Maul)

 

XVIII: Vulkan - Dawnbringer (Warhammer)

 

That makes 3 Primarchs with FW rules so far who use Warhammers (4 if you count Perturabo who "inherited" Forgebreaker), and 2 who use Lightning Claws (3 if you count Corax, who does not yet have a FW rules or model, but has shown up in fluff and art using them).  Angron, Mortarion, and Lorgar get a pass because they have "signature weapons types" for each of them.  Lion El'Jonson, Sanguinius, and Jaghatai Khan have been depicted using Swords as well, making for a total of 4 sword-using Primarchs, 5 if you count the Emperor and his "Burning Blade."  Even Roboute Gulliman's dual Power Fists could be matched by Ferrus Mannus' Necrodermis Fists (which have similar stats).

 

This to me, sounds more than a tad unimaginative.  The real world has not had any lack of imagination when it comes to battlefield-capable melee weapons, some of the less common types GW could have used for inspiration.  I'm surprised that even Horus, what with all the talk of his Legion being "the point of the spear," didn't get an actual spear or halberd as his "signature weapon."  Maybe it could be called the "Justaerin Spear" or something like that.

 

That's very... literal, don't you think? Horus's weapon has nothing to do with a military tactic favoured by his Legion. I mean, 40K has a billion blunt and literal motifs like that, but are they something new lore should aspire to? It's very on the nose, no? And then you're actually compounding your problem, because Sanguinius and Russ are both noted as using spears.

 

Plus, Horus has been marked with those weapons since forever. Giving him a spear "just because" seems pretty weak.

 

>  The Alpha Legion's Primarchs, given their iconography's whole emphasis on the 3-headed Hydra, could use a three-headed flail-type weapon too.

 

Anyone else here have ideas of more "signature weapons" the Primarchs could have used, or made conversions for them? 

 

Before anyone tells me to "just convert the models to anything you want," I still think the (easily-remedied) lack of weapon variety on GW's part here doesn't speak well to their creative ability right now.

 

Might be worth looking over your phrasing there, unless we stand at the edge of a new dawn of desperately seeking things to condescend to and look down upon. I don't even want to know the thought process that reads those FW books - with the new campaigns, characters, unit types, new names, new insignias, new lore, and everything else - and honestly, truly thinks a "lack of weapon variety" with primarchs using iconic versions of Space Marine weaponry "doesn't speak well to the writer's creative ability".

 

Phrasing is everything. Interesting points (and uninteresting ones alike) can be lost in conversation that turns pointlessly unpleasant in the attempt to raise sympathetic vitriol.

 

I think that's enough forumming for me for a few days. Good luck with this one, guys!

 

Russ and Sanguinius do own spears but they are not their favorite weapons. Russ is described as only keeping his because the Emperor gave it to him, but he still only wields his great sword Mjalnar including on Prospero. Not totally sure if Sanguinius ever uses his spear but I believe he just uses his sword in Fear to Tread.

[Demus Ragnok]

As spears go all I can think is Nostraman Chain Glaive.

 

I know spear and glaive aren't technically the same in function but hey they are pole arms.

[reckoning]

The use of a phalanx with spears in this type of setting, especially by humanity's elite, is kind of silly considering they have a veritable buffet of ranged weapons. Im sure that story makes it cool but it still seems like a misuse of resources. A local PDF using them cause theyre low on ammo or poorly funded? Sure.

 

Now an Astartes or Primarch using a spear type weapon in singular combat (or any nontraditional phalanx situation), is completely believable given what an expert can do with such a weapon. As has been pointed out, GK and Custodes both use variants. Surely the best of the best are on to something?

[Emperor's Furor]

Dorn owns a spear to doesn't he, the Soulspear.

[reckoning]

Dorn owns a spear to doesn't he, the Soulspear.

 

Yes, yes he does.

 

And his flagship is named the Phalanx...

[Wade Garrett]

The use of a phalanx with spears in this type of setting, especially by humanity's elite, is kind of silly considering they have a veritable buffet of ranged weapons. Im sure that story makes it cool but it still seems like a misuse of resources.

 

And all those wonderful weapons require this thing called "ammunition". Once the ammunition has been used up, they become poorly balanced "clubs", and now you're in melee with substandard gear.

 

This becomes very relevant when we're speaking of a small rapid reaction force that is limited to such supplies as can be loaded into Drop Pods and Thunderhawks (like Astartes) against teeming hordes who specialize in "More bodies than you've got bullets, neener neener" like Orkz, Tyranids, or Chaos (in the form of Cultists and Daemons).

[Perrin]

Well this hasn't gone well, damn spears

I was picturing spears being used as the norm, like a phalanx formation or a whole squad with spear type weapons using those kind of tactics, rather than it being a one-off wielded by a special character.

Any kind of phalanx formation is useless in 40k. I haven't read Brothers of the Snake, and I'm not disputing that they use a phalanx formation, but I can't see how that would be of any benefit when you have bolters, and short stabby weapons like a gladius for when the enemy charge hits your ranks, or chain weapons if there is more room to fight. "Into the valley of death road the six hundred" and all that. Obviously a lack of ammo is a different story.

I think Sang with a spear and a sword would be awesome.

Obviously this is 40k we're talking about, rule of cool wins every time

[Greyall]

Well, it can be argued that a spear, even with a Space Marine's level of dexterity, requires more specialization to be effective at close range - or the 'Wall of spears' strategy. By comparison, a chainsword lacks in range but is more direct, is deadly even if a foe so much as trips and bumps into it, and requires little more than brute force and being swung in the right direction.

 

Perhaps spears are just a little too 'passive' or, if in individual-mode, require too much space for the Astartes' fighting style. But it comes down to chainswords beating almost everything else at rule-of-cool.

[Wade Garrett]

A spear (or any other kind of polearm) has an advantage over a gladius type weapon because it allows you to stab the (for example) Ork to death before it can get close enough to take a choppa to your own power armored self.

 

Reach matters in melee, watch any boxing match featuring the Klitschko brothers to get an example of this principle in action.

[Captain Nameless]

Vulkan also has a spear.  Which brings the total number of primarchs who are known have spears up to 4, (I think).

[depthcharge12]

I think after beating the head of Perrin over and over again with examples has reached it's zenith, and we should "spear" him from any more :P

 

 

I think that a primarch should have a powered e-tool if Ferrus can be depicted with a power wrench. It's only fitting and maybe even a better melee weapon.

[reckoning]

 

The use of a phalanx with spears in this type of setting, especially by humanity's elite, is kind of silly considering they have a veritable buffet of ranged weapons. Im sure that story makes it cool but it still seems like a misuse of resources.

And all those wonderful weapons require this thing called "ammunition". Once the ammunition has been used up, they become poorly balanced "clubs", and now you're in melee with substandard gear.

 

This becomes very relevant when we're speaking of a small rapid reaction force that is limited to such supplies as can be loaded into Drop Pods and Thunderhawks (like Astartes) against teeming hordes who specialize in "More bodies than you've got bullets, neener neener" like Orkz, Tyranids, or Chaos (in the form of Cultists and Daemons).

 

You're implying that Astartes are only outfitted with bolters and their multiple variants. Nearly every other text on the subject disagrees. Astartes have just as many variants of CC weapons as they do ranged weapons. Even a simple combat knife can reap a deadly toll in the hands of humanity's greatest warriors. In fact, Astartes dont actually need CC weapons to be proficient in CC. They are the real weapons.

 

There is a reason the phalanx (and subsequently the spear), is no longer used by modern military forces. It can withstand a head on attack quite easily. But this also exposes its flanks quite spectacularly. Alexander used this principle against the undisputed masters of the phalanx, the Spartans, with alarming proficiency. The Romans beat it by using skirmishing units to hold the attention of the phalanx while cavalry and melee units outmaneuvered its flanks. Thus, were combined arms born.

 

Perhaps the marines held the Orks at bay similar to how the Spartans held the Persians at Thermopylae. Ive never read that book. I just find it hard to believe that Astartes, masters of combat in the 41st millennium, would employ a battlefield formation that could potentially allow their enemy to outflank them. Admittedly, they were facing orks, but why risk it? Just because you can hold them at bay with a spear? I'd rather whither them down at range and then meet them head on with my deadlier training and expertly crafted CC weapons.

[A D-B]

 

 

I always did think that the lack of weapon variety among the 18 Primarchs was a bit silly.  As an example let's go over the melee loadouts for the Primarchs who have had FW rules released for them:

 

III: Fulgrim - Fireblade/Laeran Daemonblade (Swords)

 

VIII: Konrad Curze - Mercy and Forgiveness (Lightning Claws)

 

X: Ferrus Mannus - Forgebreaker (Warhammer)

 

XII: Angron - Gorefather/Gorechild (Chainaxes)

 

XIV: Mortarion - Silence (Power Scythe)

 

XVI: Horus - Worldbreaker/Warmaster's Talon (Warhammer and Lightning Claw)

 

XVII: Lorgar Aurelian - Illuminarium (Power Maul)

 

XVIII: Vulkan - Dawnbringer (Warhammer)

 

That makes 3 Primarchs with FW rules so far who use Warhammers (4 if you count Perturabo who "inherited" Forgebreaker), and 2 who use Lightning Claws (3 if you count Corax, who does not yet have a FW rules or model, but has shown up in fluff and art using them).  Angron, Mortarion, and Lorgar get a pass because they have "signature weapons types" for each of them.  Lion El'Jonson, Sanguinius, and Jaghatai Khan have been depicted using Swords as well, making for a total of 4 sword-using Primarchs, 5 if you count the Emperor and his "Burning Blade."  Even Roboute Gulliman's dual Power Fists could be matched by Ferrus Mannus' Necrodermis Fists (which have similar stats).

 

This to me, sounds more than a tad unimaginative.  The real world has not had any lack of imagination when it comes to battlefield-capable melee weapons, some of the less common types GW could have used for inspiration.  I'm surprised that even Horus, what with all the talk of his Legion being "the point of the spear," didn't get an actual spear or halberd as his "signature weapon."  Maybe it could be called the "Justaerin Spear" or something like that.

 

That's very... literal, don't you think? Horus's weapon has nothing to do with a military tactic favoured by his Legion. I mean, 40K has a billion blunt and literal motifs like that, but are they something new lore should aspire to? It's very on the nose, no? And then you're actually compounding your problem, because Sanguinius and Russ are both noted as using spears.

 

Plus, Horus has been marked with those weapons since forever. Giving him a spear "just because" seems pretty weak.

 

>  The Alpha Legion's Primarchs, given their iconography's whole emphasis on the 3-headed Hydra, could use a three-headed flail-type weapon too.

 

Anyone else here have ideas of more "signature weapons" the Primarchs could have used, or made conversions for them? 

 

Before anyone tells me to "just convert the models to anything you want," I still think the (easily-remedied) lack of weapon variety on GW's part here doesn't speak well to their creative ability righ

t now.

 

Might be worth looking over your phrasing there, unless we stand at the edge of a new dawn of desperately seeking things to condescend to and look down upon. I don't even want to know the thought process that reads those FW books - with the new campaigns, characters, unit types, new names, new insignias, new lore, and everything else - and honestly, truly thinks a "lack of weapon variety" with primarchs using iconic versions of Space Marine weaponry "doesn't speak well to the writer's creative ability".

 

Phrasing is everything. Interesting points (and uninteresting ones alike) can be lost in conversation that turns pointlessly unpleasant in the attempt to raise sympathetic vitriol.

 

I think that's enough forumming for me for a few days. Good luck with this one, guys!

Russ and Sanguinius do own spears but they are not their favorite weapons. Russ is described as only keeping his because the Emperor gave it to him, but he still only wields his great sword Mjalnar including on Prospero. Not totally sure if Sanguinius ever uses his spear but I believe he just uses his sword in Fear to Tread.

 

 

All true, and famously known. I'm not sure of the relevance here, in directly quoting me.