Iron Father Ferrum Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Perhaps the marines held the Orks at bay similar to how the Spartans held the Persians at Thermopylae. Ive never read that book. I just find it hard to believe that Astartes, masters of combat in the 41st millennium, would employ a battlefield formation that could potentially allow their enemy to outflank them. Admittedly, they were facing orks, but why risk it? Just because you can hold them at bay with a spear? I'd rather whither them down at range and then meet them head on with my deadlier training and expertly crafted CC weapons. It's been a while, but if memory serves, the Iron Snakes were deployed in a long line on a ridgeline or hilltop and crunched an ork charge with massed bolters, then swapped out to their spears, at which point phalanx tactics became the order of the day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 To begin with, ALEXANDER was the undisputed master of the phalanx. He and his dad Phillip of Macedon were the ones to give their soldiers the 21 foot long sarissas most people think of when they picture a phalanx. Second, Alexander never fought the Spartans. Philip contemplated an invasion, and even went so far as sending missives to the Spartans they should submit to him, because if he went to war with them and won he'd kill all the men and enslave their women and children. The lords of Sparta sent back a single word in reply. "If". Phillip decided to go invade other people, and Alex followed in his course. As far as the rest, all I'll say is that your knowledge of tactics compares favorably to your grasp of ancient history. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I don't really understand why maces are AP4 only because those things just crunch into armor and give you massive internal bleeding and/or broken bones. Not to mention the fact that if you knock someone in the head with one it would easily knock it off their body or cause serious brain trauma enough to impair even a space marine. Idk I just feel that maces are not represented well within 30/40k rules aside from the Primarch sized ones... :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I don't really understand why maces are AP4 only because those things just crunch into armor and give you massive internal bleeding and/or broken bones. Not to mention the fact that if you knock someone in the head with one it would easily knock it off their body or cause serious brain trauma enough to impair even a space marine. Idk I just feel that maces are not represented well within 30/40k rules aside from the Primarch sized ones... They aren't, but at the same time if your in power armor you might actually survive getting hit with a mace, terminator armor can handle tank shells quite well so a mace is minor. This is part of the reason the power maul has the highest strength out of all the power weapons, and someone failing a save is basically that moment the mace hits the skull. Besides it does just fine against everything it's supposed to mulch ie. 4+ saves and worse. My issue is with the power lance, it needs an boost to Initiative, and the bonus should be in the first round of combat. It doesn't matter if your charging or getting charged, spears and other polearms have every advantage in the opening of any fight. That's what makes defensive formations so brutal, and why marines using such weapons and tactics are impossible to beat. Either day to their ranged power, or die trying to slip past their spears. You lose either way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reckoning Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Actually the Spartans clashed with Alexander's general, Antipater near Megalopolis but you are correct in that neither Philip nor his son ever fought the Spartans. My mistake But I wouldnt call Alexander or his father the masters of the phalanx. They didnt even prefer it to other methods. They certainly revolutionized it by adding longer spears and stringing one side out farther than the other side. They also used cavalry in wedge formations to hit the enemies flanks. This method destroyed the traditional Hoplite phalanx that the Greek states were so partial to. I would also disagree that most people associate the sarissa with the phalanx (unless you mean Macedonian phalanx). It certainly makes a good counter to the hoplite phalanx though. All of this is interesting but it doesnt address the fact that the tactic is outdated. I cant argue with a BL story because that battle and its tactics are now a part of the lore. If people choose to believe Astartes prefer spears in CC thats their opinion and I wont begrudge them for it. Its probably a cool story and I plan on checking it out now. My Astartes prefer other tactics though. OT, I would love to read a story of a marine or primarch wasting fools with a spear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I have a personal formula to deal with this trickiest and stickiest of subjects. "Spears are awesome. Simply awesome. People who don't think spears are awesome are, themselves, not awesome." -- Aaron W. Dembski-Bowden, age 33 and 1/2. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reckoning Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I have a personal formula to deal with this trickiest and stickiest of subjects. "Spears are awesome. Simply awesome. People who don't think spears are awesome are, themselves, not awesome." -- Aaron W. Dembski-Bowden, age 33 and 1/2. Debate over. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Nah, I wouldn't say Marines prefer spears, chainswords, combat blades, and powerwhatevers are pretty much the order of the day. And tercios/phalanxes/pike squares/etc are going to be a bit unwieldy for the usual battlefield role of a Space Marine, i.e. dropping out of the sky to unleash the matchless wrath of the Emperor incarnate (replace "dropped out of sky" with "stormed forth from rolling metal box" where appropriate). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Oh and the leader of Vulkans bodyguard had a spear. With built in volkite weapon I do believe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Was more of a glaive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I'm more of an axe person, but axes aren't really the best weapon in a 1 on 1 situation (assuming equivalent strength). They are perfect for Space Marines, though, especially assault squads, who mainly drop down and sweep whatever's in their path. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoros Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I have a personal formula to deal with this trickiest and stickiest of subjects. "Spears are awesome. Simply awesome. People who don't think spears are awesome are, themselves, not awesome." -- Aaron W. Dembski-Bowden, age 33 and 1/2. Yeah, but how do they compare to glaives? That's the question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I have a personal formula to deal with this trickiest and stickiest of subjects. "Spears are awesome. Simply awesome. People who don't think spears are awesome are, themselves, not awesome." -- Aaron W. Dembski-Bowden, age 33 and 1/2. This is why I love Halberds so much. It's essentially just a spear, with an axe on one side. Axes are awesome too, so it's two awesome weapons on a long pole that can carve through multiple people. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Was more of a glaive. Weapon on a stick. Close enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I'm more of an axe person, but axes aren't really the best weapon in a 1 on 1 situation (assuming equivalent strength). We call that heresy around these parts, laddie. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Any more examples of characters using spears to stab me in the heart with? No? I would like to point out that I was saying spear tactics have no use in 40k because they have bolters. I'm not underestimating the effectiveness of a phalanx when facing a charge, but decent ranged units win every time, especially if they're using a massive gun that fires self-propelled explosive bolts that literally blow you apart from the inside. The Custodes Guardian Spears are the best of both really, a spear that fires bolt rounds. How ironic that they don't fight in formation. And Pfffff ADB, nothing is more awesome than an axe. Gimli has an axe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I kind of hope that Alpharius has just a Power sword. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Any more examples of characters using spears to stab me in the heart with? No? I would like to point out that I was saying spear tactics have no use in 40k because they have bolters. I'm not underestimating the effectiveness of a phalanx when facing a charge, but decent ranged units win every time, especially if they're using a massive gun that fires self-propelled explosive bolts that literally blow you apart from the inside. The Custodes Guardian Spears are the best of both really, a spear that fires bolt rounds. How ironic that they don't fight in formation. And Pfffff ADB, nothing is more awesome than an axe. Gimli has an axe. Gimli actually has more than one axe, and one doubles as a walking stick. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I kind of hope that Alpharius has just a Power sword. As long as he doesn't have a spear. After this thread I hope spears are banned by Horus and the Emperor for all troops in any circumstances ever. @Lysere Aye, but it isn't a spear Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 And here I am, all alone, wishing someone would use a tomahawk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 And here I am, all alone, wishing someone would use a tomahawk. Read that and had a vision of marines riding cruise missles into combat. Yep time for bed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reckoning Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 And here I am, all alone, wishing someone would use a tomahawk. Now that would be cool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Perhaps Perturabo should have a Master-Crafted Power E-Tool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reckoning Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Perhaps Perturabo should have a Master-Crafted Power E-Tool. Which he then uses to fight a ballistic-knife armed Spetsnaz. Tactical E-Tool! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 A slimmer, uni-claw style Lighting Claw could also work for Alpharius. And now I'm a bit sad none of the Primarchs uses a rather large 2-handed axe... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288633-primarch-weapon-variety-or-lack-thereof/page/4/#findComment-3635894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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