Havocks?

[Spacefrisian]

So iam working on a list here and iam a bit stuck, how many Havocks units should i take, and how many should i put in a single squad. (somehow 2x5 seems to stick)

 

On an extra note (very important one) they will be getting Mark of Tzeentch and they will be put on a skyshield landing pad for a 3+ invulsave. Seems to me that this is a good attempt to keep them around long enough for them to do some serious damage.

 

List will be 1850 points as usual.

 

On the note of the Skyshield, i will scratch build it from cardboard and shape it in some sort of summoning circle thingy with a Mark of Tzeentch on top of it, fits nicely along the edges. So far only got the large pad.

 

Btw: it wont be a full Tzeentch army as Noisemarines tend to be Slaanesh.

[Xenith]

Depends what you nee them for. 4xML, AC or Las could be fun.

if you dont have enough AP2 in the army, las good, not enough anti flyer, 4xAC. If you only have 1 unit of obbies, I'd go 4xlas, 6-8 men.

If you have 2 units of obbies, then 1 havoc, 4xML or AC.

[the jeske]

If there are NM in the list I would say 0-1 units of havocks with autocannons .

[Fibonacci]

I have had some good results using 2 ML w/flakk and 2 AC in a squad of havoks.  I don't usually split weapons in squads like that but so far chaos havoks are my exception.

 

I am not a big fan sky shields and less so about putting marines up there.  OK, so you can get a 3++ save, but the points spent to get that do nothing to improve survival from bolters, lasguns, shootas, gauss rifles, shurikens, etc.  Every army's basic small arms weaponry will still cause casualties at the same rate as if they were in the open.  Any savy player will use their base troops to shoot away the 3++ havoks while redirecting their high strength weapons to better targets. 

 

Anyway, just my opinion.  Your results may be different.

[Spacefrisian]

"improve survival from bolters, lasguns, shootas, gauss rifles, shurikens"

Lets asume its not in any planning any of those get in rapid fire of those Havocks.

 

On a side note, i might get a test game this evening, and good chance it will be against Tau, that guy hardly brings air units or anti air in his list, although he does have those available to him. Hes a coverhugging guy actually (1 of the reasons i want Noise Marines in my list with babysitter Sorceror of the dark sounds)

[Fibonacci]

http://lexician.com/lexblog/2010/11/no-battle-plan-survives-contact-with-the-enemy/

[the jeske]

no AA itau list . you have to post the post battle . I can't even imagine how a tau army looks like without AA.

 

Also the pad does improve survival from shurikens . they have pseudo rending , don't forget it . As to keeping away part goes. I don't think that is possible in this day of age .

 

If you plan to take landing pad , I would advice to take more then just one unit that can benefit from it .

[Spacefrisian]

Wel he tends to bring weird Forgeworld stuff instead. Although he is pretty predictable in deployment, so i might find alot of use from my WarpTalons, if those come in nicely he will have to pass alot of blinding checks and should fail some with that inniativ of his.

 

Most opponents of mine do tend to waste to much time on my Warptalons, 4++ save for the win so to speak. I am beginning to get more appreciation for that mark so to speak. The mark not the attached cultmarines.

[Spacefrisian]

Battle had a slight change yesterday, we played a 2v2 with that Tau player teaming up with a Chaos player and me with a Daemon player.

 

As predicted the Tau player didnt have much AA, just 2 guns from aegis line (both had them) and a Skyray. We got 1st turn and first shot did count, my Forgefiend got 1 glance, 1 penetrate and he rolled a 1 on cover save for penetrate, after that the 6 kept comming for damage result as well as explosion. The skyfire guns remaining werent much of a threat as we made max use of terrain. And by end our turn 2 both quad guns had none of the original crew to use them (ally Daemonprince had taken control)

 

We only played up till turn 3 sadly, but by that time we were already winning, 20 Bloodletters with strength 6 are nasty, even for plague marines (My Slaanesh Sorceror boosted there strength).

 

As for the Havocks, pesky Tau and there cover save didnt make them kill much, but than again only 4 of them died between 2 units. The look on ther face when i revealed them to have a 3+ invul save, epic.

 

His list (from what i think he had) (both had aegis line with autocannon upgrade)

Comander: Tl missile pods, plasma, drones

Ethereal

2x2 XV8 same as commander, without drones

Riptide with overheat gun

6 Firewarriors

12 Kroot

Firewarrior in Devilfish x2 (both never showed up, although if they had done on turn 2 than one would have been intercepted by there own quadgun)

6 Pathfinders

Sky Ray

3 XV88

 

His ally had:

Typhus

Sorceror in tda, +2 lvls, Tzeentch

PlagueZombies: 20 i think

Plaguemarines: 8

CSM: x10, Nurgle

Havocks with Autocannons

Terminators: 5, Mark of Nurgle, Reapercannon

2 Helbrutes, 1 from Starter, 1 new one with Lascannon/ mlauncher

 

My List: (more detailed)

Lord:

-Nurgle, powerweapon, Sigil, Brand of Skal, Blight grenades

 

Sorceror:

-+1 lvl, Aura, Slaanesh

 

2x7 Plaguemarines:

-Meltabomb, 2x2 plasmagun

 

Noise marines: 9

-8x ccw, Blastmaster, 7 Sonicblaster, Doomsiren/ powerweapon

-Rhino: Dirgecaster

 

Warptalos: 5

-Tzeentch

 

Helldrake

 

2x5 Havocks:

-4 Autocannon, Tzeentch

 

Skyshield

 

My Ally: (not 100% sure)

Fateweaver

Daemonprince:

-WIngs, armour, Tzeentch

20 Blood letters

15 Pink horrors

6 Flamers

Soulgrinder

 

 

The Nurgle part of my army didnt do much (didnt die either), so i might throw them out and put in more Noisemarines.

[the jeske]

There must have been a lot of LoS blocking terrain . Interesting lists , all 4 of them.

[Spacefrisian]

Yes quite some, guess we are one of those clubs who have acces to actually useable terrain (and in combo with GW official plain setup terrain rules), any table we can setup will look like its a cityfight.

 

As for the list, i had some other things to ponder on, maybe i could use mroe help on that.

 

Provided the following will not change (much)

Lord+ mark of Slaanesh

Sorceror+ mark of Slaanesh

Noise marines in RHino

Helldrake

Warptalons+ Tzeentch

2x5 Havocks+ Tzeentch

Skyshield

 

What options would be best suited to add:

#1: 2 small noisemarine units with Blastmasters, Cultists + Tzeentch (35 if possible)

#2: 1 unit of noisemarines in Rhino with Lord, 1Csm unit + Tzeentch

#3: 1 unit of noisemarines in Rhino with Lord, Cultists + Tzeentch (35 if possible)

 

No points calculated yet, so iam not sure if it fits in 1850.

 

Army needs a name as well, Maybe Legion of Madness, sounds nice.

[the jeske]

IF ally are not totaly out of the question then a unit of CS possessed and the sorc turned in to divination caster would help a lot . Pre helps a lot with marines hiting on +3 , smooths out the hit ratio and for units that use blasts or are multi shot it is even more important.

[Spacefrisian]

The Sorceror is already boosting Slaanesh ranged weaponry, doubt i should remove that combo as its very usefull (2nd slaanesh power is pretty much a guaranteed include). Unles S9 blast ignore cover/ S5 ignore cover is considered not very usefull. Ws/bs reduction is a bonus.

[Spacefrisian]

So i came up with a possible army list.

 

HQ:
Chaos Lord:
-Meltabombs, Slaanesh, power weapon, Sigil of Coruption

Sorceror:
-Slaanesh, aura of dark glory, +2 lvl

Troops:
Noise marines: x8
-Blastmaster, 7 sonic blasters
-Doomsiren
-Rhino

Noise Marines: x5
-Blastmaster

Noise Marines: x5
-Blastmaster

Cultsists: x10
-Tzeentch

Fast:
Helldrake

Helldrake

Warptalons: x5
-Tzeentch

Heavy:
Havocks: x5
-Tzeentch, 4x Autocannon

Havocks: x5
-Tzeentch, 4x Autocannon

Forgefiend

Fortification:
Skyshield landing pad
 

1850 points

51 models

 

It adds all the shiny toys i want in the list, and it could profit from each other if its needed, although units might be a bit on the small side.

[the jeske]

Troops:

 

Noise marines: x8

 

-Blastmaster, 7 sonic blasters

 

-Doomsiren

 

-Rhino

What does this suppose to do in your list?

[Excessus]

http://lexician.com/lexblog/2010/11/no-battle-plan-survives-contact-with-the-enemy/

Aaah, good old Moltke. Rumour has it he only smiled twice in his life...

 

...he would have been an excellent astartes...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

Troops:

 

Noise marines: x8

 

-Blastmaster, 7 sonic blasters

 

-Doomsiren

 

-Rhino

What does this suppose to do in your list?

 

It's where the Lord and Sorceror go.

[Spacefrisian]

Yup thats the basic idea.

[Xenith]

Why put the combatty lord in a shooty unit? Unless for unloading from the rhino and shooting summa, in which case bolters are almost as good. Consider getting a doom siren on the champ and Brand on the lord for overwatch fun times.

[daveNYC]

Why put the combatty lord in a shooty unit? Unless for unloading from the rhino and shooting summa, in which case bolters are almost as good. Consider getting a doom siren on the champ and Brand on the lord for overwatch fun times.

 

At the very least I'd think twice about the Blastmaster in that unit.  With the Rhino and Doom Siren, it looks like you're going to be driving up, hopping out, and then blazing away for a turn before piling into an assault.  Leaving aside the issues with all the salvo weaponry, the Blastmaster is a big chunk of points for one turn of shooting with its assault profile.

 

And if it's going to be a long range shooty unit, the sonic blasters are going to be somewhat wasted.  Doomsiren is not a bad idea though, it gives you a little something something in case someone decides to be cute and DS next to your dudes.

 

I wish the sonic weapons meshed a little better with each other and with what the MoS gives to units.

[the jeske]

Yup thats the basic idea.

I know that , but what does it do. It can't assault out of a rhino . Because of the syren and sorc+lord it wants to be in melee asap , but sonic and BM mean it doesn't want to be in melee at all . It can't be doing melee alone , because the only non gunline support unit are those 5 talons . It could be a counter unit , but why the rhino then . the whole army fits on the landing pad or behind it , so the rhino is not needed . It could be there for LoS sniping , but for that 2 are needed and there is just that one in the whole list.

 

That is why I was asking about the units role.

[Spacefrisian]

Why put the combatty lord in a shooty unit? Unless for unloading from the rhino and shooting summa, in which case bolters are almost as good. Consider getting a doom siren on the champ and Brand on the lord for overwatch fun times.

Cause bolters do not profit from Symphony of pain (pretty guaranteed with a lvl 3 Sorceror).

 

As for the combat Lord, i have been working on an alternate list where she is going on a bike with some Spawns. Should improve overall usefullness.

 

My Lord is based on WM Pirate queen Skarre btw, incase you get weird Slaanesh lords ideas, although the ship part would be a bike instead, maybe a bike thats comming from the ground (Wysiwyg issues and such), New Raptor kit included a matching sword.

 

http://www.eva-widermann.de/i/119.jpg

[Spacefrisian]

Another question, modelwise.

 

I remade my Hellbrute (build from ironclad kit) into a Helldrake, same size after addeding stuff like engines and wings (stil needs smoothing up with greenstuff, but i dont have that atm.)

So my question, would you allow me to use it as a Helldrake?

 

Dont have a pic, so just imagin a Dreadnought body with the ecto cannons from the forgefiend as engines followed by Daemonprince wings onboth sides, with a  tail on its rear.

[Excessus]

Why not? If it's mounted on a flying base and is similar size-wise, I wouldn't see a reason not to play it as a heldrake...

[the jeske]

Can't judge without a pic. In general a hellbrut is less then half the size of helldrake , it would need a huge engine and wings to be same size.