Word Bearers Fluff v Rules

[Slave to Darkness]

Just having another Re-read of the Word Bearers trilogy and one thing is starting to bug me, In the book the Dark Apostles are made out to be the bees knees of the Legion, super hard mean killy types of doom, and the  coryphaeus is second in command. 

In my head, I see the  coryphaeus as the equivalent of a Chaos Lord, and looking through codex chaos the Dark Apostle looks like he can be killed by a sneeze, he doent seem to be able to live up to the reputation he has in the fluff. 

 

Now is t just me that is bugged by this? or do other people have a problem as well? thoughts people?

[MaliGn]

Arguably in that series both are true, Jarulek is clearly an utter bad ass, and it is hinted that Kol Badar nearly killed Marduk in years gone by. Burias is also pretty much a chaos lord (plus possession). However both Jarulek and Marduk's power comes from their faith rather than physical prowess of battlefield acumen.

 

it is merely a quirk of the religiously fanatical legion that elevates the dark apostles of the word bearers to warlord status, rather than simply their combat ability. It is their understanding of the book of lorgar and the warp itself that grants them the positions of power. Each legionnaire is a deeply spiritual individual and respect their religious leaders. Wise leaders will utilise the skills of their teams (warbands) to best effect so appoint the most grounded and tactical marine to coryphaeus and the most devout to first acolyte. Keeps nearly everyone nearly happy, and at least loyal to the master that rewarded them in the first place.

[Kol Saresk]

There's also the fact that the Dark Apostle in the Codex isn't the same Dark Apostle we see in the Word Bearers. Its meant to be a more generic unit that can be found amongst Renegades and such as a fallen Chaplain, Missionary, Overly Charismatic individual, etc.

[Sception]

Apostles, Smiths, and Sorcerers could all really use a 3 wound incarnation (with access to specialist wargear for apostles & smiths).  For that matter, Lords could use a 2 wound version as well.

 

Honestly, what would have been best would have been a single lord/lieutenant entry, with upgrades for apostles, smiths, and sorcerers.  Maybe one character entry, and then pick from tyrant (+1 weapon skill & attack, fearless), smith (-1 WS, smith abilities, access to tech gear), Apostle (-1 Bs, zealot, crozius, access to inspiration buffs), or sorcerer (mastery level, access to sorcerer upgrades)?

 

I don't know.  It's neither here nor there now.  As it is, the Apostles who actually command Word Bearers warbands/companies/whatevers and the Warsmiths that command Iron Warriors forces are both better represented by chaos lords than by smiths or apostles in the rules.

[MaliGn]

I've made incarnations of my word bearers apostle as lord, sorcerer and apostle, points work out about the same too.

[Urauloth]

There's also the fact that the Dark Apostle in the Codex isn't the same Dark Apostle we see in the Word Bearers. Its meant to be a more generic unit that can be found amongst Renegades and such as a fallen Chaplain, Missionary, Overly Charismatic individual, etc.

 

Yeah, this is where the problem stems from. The apostle in the codex doesn't represent the rank of dark apostle in the word bearers legion (and thus commander of a host) and it would have saved a lot of potential confusion if they'd named him something else.

[Sception]

The thing is, unlike loyalists, chaos factions don't make qualitative distinctions between primary command, religious leaders, tech masters, and psykers.  In loyalist forces, those distinctions are a deliberate check on power, meant to keep command of imperial forces free from corrupting influences and to prevent too much power from being collected in the hands of individual leaders lest they might choose to break away from imperial authority.  It's the same reason that the imperial navy, imperial guard, titan legions, space marine chapters, and inquisition are all distinct forces - forces which cooperate but operate under their own independent power structures.

 

That's not the way chaos is.  That is, in fact, the opposite of chaos philosophy.  If a cult leader or psycher rises to supreme command of a chaos military force, then so be it, that is merely the creme of the crop rising to the surface as they should.  So what if that opens your force to corruption?  You're chaos marines, you're already corruption incarnate, etc.  Who are you going to rebel against?  You're already in open revolt against the Imperium.  Abaddon?  That's suicide, but if you could unseat him, then so be it, if that happens then he wasn't worthy.

 

Distinguishing between chaos lords and apostles or sorcerers just doesn't make sense to me.  Maybe a distinction between lords and smiths could still make sense, if we re-cast them more as priests of the dark mechanicus rather than traitor techmarines, but as it is even that distinction just doesn't seem to fit thematically.  Loyalist space marines are all about neat, tidy distinctions and compartments.  Captains, Chaplains, and Librarians as distinct entities.  The predator annihilator as a distinct unit entry from the predator destructor, etc.  Chaos marines should be about fewer unit entries, with more customization within those entries, as without the authority imposed from above by the imperium rigid categorical order breaks down and individual warriors and commanders are left to pursue their own interests and abilities.

[Rasclomalum]

I posted this in the Word Bearers supplement thread. Could be a workable solution to the Dark Apostle conundrum (though really, Malisteen's idea about modular Chaos Champions is much better thematically): 

 

 

 

 

Grand Apostle: 

 

The Chaos Lord loses Master of Traitors and gains the following: 

 

- Zealot

- Demagogue

- Beseech the Dark Gods

- Replaces his close combat weapon with an Accursed Crozius (power maul).

 

Additional options: 

 

- May replace his Accursed Crozius with an Infernal Sceptre (Thunder Hammer).... 15 points. 

 

- The Grand Apostle may replace his power armour, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades with Terminator Armour and Combi-bolter: 25 points.

 

Also gets the usual options like artifacts, combi-weapons and so on. The Infernal Sceptre is available to Grand Apostles in Terminator Armour for the same cost. 

 

And for the Sorcerers...

 

Daemonancer

 

The Sorcerer loses Master of the Rubricae and gains the following: 

 

- Zealot

- Demagogue

- Beseech the Dark Gods

- Replaces his force weapon with a Demoniac Crozius (force staff).

 

And then the usual slew of upgrades. 

 

Sharper minds than mine would have to calculate the cost for these upgrades. For the Chaos Lord, we're looking at 15 points for the Power Maul + whatever the Apostle rules are worth (regular Lords still get Fearless though), and probably a deduction for losing Master of Traitors. It would probably be cheaper for the Sorcerer since he doesn't replace a weapon (and would indeed be forced to take one variety). I'd be tempted to give Daemonancers access to Divination but that's just inviting angry glances. 

 

Giving the Grand Apostle the option to take a Thunder Hammer Crozius means he can still play the role of the respectable beatstick. 

 

Come to think of it, this is more like how Dark Apostles should have been done in the actual C:CSM codex...

[Scribe]

 

There's also the fact that the Dark Apostle in the Codex isn't the same Dark Apostle we see in the Word Bearers. Its meant to be a more generic unit that can be found amongst Renegades and such as a fallen Chaplain, Missionary, Overly Charismatic individual, etc.

 

Yeah, this is where the problem stems from. The apostle in the codex doesn't represent the rank of dark apostle in the word bearers legion (and thus commander of a host) and it would have saved a lot of potential confusion if they'd named him something else.

 

However they didnt, just like the War(p) Smith, intentionally to give a bone to WB and IW. The problem is, in doing so, they forgot where those units had come from originally. :/