King Jackal Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Anybody interested in talking about building a firepower list starting from the Murderpack? My initial thoughts have been: Crimson Slaughter Primary HQ Sorcerer - Balestar of Mannon, ML3 ? Troops 30 Cultists - 26 Autoguns, 3 Flamers 10 Cultists 10 Cultists More? Less? Elites 3 Helbrutes - Reaper Autocannons Fast Attack ? Heavy Support Obliterators? Forgefiends? Maulerfiends? Defilers? Murderpack Detachment Reaper Autocannons Missile Launchers or Plasma Cannons Daemons Allies ? HQ Herald of Tzeentch - Mastery Level 3, Locus of Conjuration Troops 10 - 20 Horrors Elites Flamers ? Heavy Support Soul Grinder ? Seeker Cavalcade ? I think the biggest decision comes from the HS choice primary. Do I go the utility of Obliterators? Or the speed and tank busting power of the Maulerfiends? Or then again I could follow the theme and have the added firepower and range of Hades Forgefiends and/or Defilers? What about advancing Ectofiends and Plasma Helbrutes? Is more AV the key to this build? Could I do it better with a Daemons Primary supported by Soul Grinders? Or would mass Slaanesh chariots compliment the range of the brutes ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 From what I read, this type of formation can be taken without the allies rule? So you could theoretically just take the Helfist in a Demon army. Also, you intend to bring 8 Helbrutes, or did you forget a Helfist is 5? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Jackal Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 Yeah I mean a Primary, Allies slot and Helbrutes formation. But nothing is locked in. and yeah I mean to take 8 Helbrutes. An AV spam of sorts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I'm certainly curious. My estimation of the murderfist has risen along with my skepticism of the mayhem pack. Not to the point that I think it's worthwhile, but to the point that I'd certainly like to see someone try to make it work. The issue is points cost, though. You're HQ will be, what, 150 points (and while divisorc is obv superior, I'd be sorely tempted to go smith on this one, for thematics if nothing else)? Even min troops is another 100, then nearly 600 points of murderfist (assuming missile launcher & reaper minimum), so that's already 850 points, with only min primary slot. Want three more brutes for some reason? 300+ more points? A pair of drakes? You're already talking 1500 points, and it really doesn't feel like a 1500 point list to me. Among other things, you've still only got min cultists for troops, and if that's your only scoring, imo that's really asking for trouble. Try and throw in another big unit of cultists, oblits or fiends, and allied daemons, and you'll be looking at a list well over 2k points before you even know what's happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Jackal Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 How about a rough starting point - I'll say 2000 points which is my standard game size Sorcerer Balestar Mastery 3 Warpsmith Cultists x 30 26 Autoguns 3 Flamers Cultists x 13 Cultists x 13 Cultists x 13 Cultists x 12 3 Helbrutes with Reaper Autocannons 2 x Maulerfiends Obliterators x 2 Helfist Murderpack 5 x Helbrutes with Missile Launchers and Reaper Autocannons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ammonius Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Wow, I'd love to see that list on the table!! Have you considered taking one of those 3 autocannon Helbrutes and making a Helcult with it? Maybe cut the 30-strong cultist unit into two 15's, but keep the (now fearless) autoguns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totgeboren Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 To me the Murderpack definitely seems to be the worst of the dataslates, because of a few things. First off, sure, you get to pick the crazed result you want, but it only affects the Helbrutes with crazed markers (meaning only one, two tops will get to fire twice), and if you do pick the 'fire twice' result, all your five dreads have to shoot at the same target, which has to be whatever shot your dread. How often do you want to target the same thing with five dreads? So if you instead go with a close combat approach, you have the same situation. If you pick Blood Rage, your dreads with crazed markers get fleet, but since the whole squad wont have it, they will not benefit anyway. Really, the only thing Pack Leader does is ensure you don't get Blood Rage on your shooty dreads. And even if you always pick Rising Fury, you are still stuck with having to target the same thing with all your five dreads. Of course, it could be pretty good when the pack it down to 2 dreads maybe, but I just do see the point of the formation? Helcult allows the dread to work in support of infantry, Mayhem Pack allow Dreads a means of deployment that allows them to participate in the battle in a meaningful way, but I don't see what the Murderpack is supposed to do (except cost a whole lot of points)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Jackal Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 @Ammonius: What load out would you go for that brute? Could be a good idea, might try to write it in Another way I looked at doing the list was this: Warpsmith Burming Brand Warpsmith Helbrute Reaper Autocannon Helbrute Reaper Autocannon Helbrute Reaper Autocannon 20 x Cultists 2 x Flamers 20 x Cultists 2 x Flamers 10 x Cultists 10x Cultists Dakkafiend Dakkafiend Defiler 5 x Helbrutes Reaper Autocannon Missile Launcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Actually, with that list there is literally zero reason not to make one of those brutes a helcult leader. You should probably even drop one of the remaining cultist units, and reduce squad size on the others, to bulk up your second fearless squad in the cult. Alternatively, split the bigger cultist unit in half, and make two of your remaining brutes cult leaders, for 4 small fearless cultist squads, plus 2 dreads with 3+ cover? Maybe drop the last dread to bulk out the cultists? I like the divisorc, but I could see runing skyshield instead, maybe? Maybe lascannons on the dreads, as an excuse to drop the oblits? How about this: Black Legion Smith, eye of night 2x10 cultists Baledrake Dakkafiend Skyshield Landing Pad Helcult - Brute; lascannons, scourge - 25 cultists, 2 flamer - 10 cultists Helcult - ditto Helfist - 5xlascannon, 5xmissile By my count that's 2k on the nose? I don't completely hate the look of that, but it still doesn't look like 2k points to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Do the cultists remain scoring if taken as a formation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 if your going to run engines, particularly forge fiends you really need that Div3 Sorcerer. just the rerolls potential alone is necessary for your BS3 machines Do the cultists remain scoring if taken as a formation? yes....can we get this stickied somewhere I'm tired of people asking the same damned thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ammonius Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I am by no means an expert, but I think I'd try Malisteen's Lascannon/ Scourge loadout. Your list will benefit from the tools to deal with armor/monsters/terminators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Divsorc is useful on the fiend, but on brutes some of their better guns - reapers and lascannons in particular - are twin linked already, reducing the benefit of such a character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 yeah but on those platforms ignores cover and the other div benefits are worth more due to their low ROF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Jackal Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 I'm going to give a few of these ideas a go. Skyshield and the brutes on top sounds good I reckon. In other news playing a doubles 2000 point (1000 each, selected rules allowed - no forgeworld, no escalation, no AV15, supplements and data slates allowed) tourney next month, allying with a Farsight crisis suit spam and I am thinking of taking the Helfist and the Skyshield, not taking it too seriously with my choice but could be worth a laugh, what else should I squeeze into this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 divsorc (or warpsmith, if only for fluff), and min cultists. After a helfist and landing pad, you won't really have points for anything beyond that, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 100-150pts for troop 550pts for the dreads , there isn't much wiggle room considering the landing pad and a divi sorc has to be bought . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Jackal Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 The choice will probably be div sorcerer or landing pad and warpsmith. I think for arguments sake i'll look at Warpsmith 3 x 10 Cultists Skyshield 5 x Helbrutes with Reaper Autocannon and Missile Launcher 90 points to spend. Haha it's very light. I could bulk up on the Cultists or change the armament on the brutes, maybe a 2nd cheap HQ. But very very light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 How are you equipping the helfist at only 550? If going for long range firepower (which you need to do if you want to run them static on a landing pad), then 550 covers the missile launchers only, with no main guns other than heavy bolters or multi meltas, neither being very good for ranged support. The minimum you should want to use there is reaper autocannons, which pushes the price up to, iirc, 575, and even then the range isn't great, and your partner will need to be able to handle heavy armor, infantry and vehicle. Imo, the ideal would be lascannons, but they you're looking at fully 675 points for the squadron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Jackal Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 I have them costed at 575. All with Lascannons you reckon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I have them costed at 575. All with Lascannons you reckon? At least a couple if you want assurance against armor and fliers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Range as much as anything else leads me to push for lascannons on a static helfist meant for support fire. I'd be more comfortable with the autocannons on them if they were regular twin linked autocannons like the loyalist version instead of the shorter ranged reapers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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