Sevatar (thank you ADB)

[Greyall]

Thanks, Kol, thought it was set in stone.

[[TA]Typher]

I'm a total DA fan boy but Sevatar is one of the best written, interesting characters in the HH. Most people only seem to value the very best fighters. I see a lot of hate piled on characters like Lucius because they sometimes lose fights. To me you don't have to be equal to sigismund to be interesting. A well written character that has more facets to his personality then the generic "hulk smash" of most marines is by far much more fun to read about. Sevatar is a good fighter but that isn't what makes him likeable, it's the fact that unlike 98% of most asartes he has a sense of humor. 

[DarKnight]

I'm a total DA fan boy but Sevatar is one of the best written, interesting characters in the HH. Most people people only seem to value the very best fighters. I see a lot of hate piled on characters like Lucius because they sometimes lose fights. To me you don't have a equal to sigismund to be interesting. A well written character that has more facits to his personality then the generic "hulk smash" of most marines, is by far much more fun to read about. Sevatar i a good fighter but that isn 't what makes him likeable, it's the fact that unlike 98% of most asartes he has a sense of humor.

Kinda a tangent but I don't think people dislike Lucius because he loses sometimes, it's the fact that he's been "losing" since the Scouring but since he has the blessing of Slaanesh, he basically gets rewarded for getting killed which is dumb.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

I'm a total DA fan boy but Sevatar is one of the best written, interesting characters in the HH. Most people people only seem to value the very best fighters. I see a lot of hate piled on characters like Lucius because they sometimes lose fights. To me you don't have a equal to sigismund to be interesting. A well written character that has more facits to his personality then the generic "hulk smash" of most marines, is by far much more fun to read about. Sevatar i a good fighter but that isn 't what makes him likeable, it's the fact that unlike 98% of most asartes he has a sense of humor.

Kinda a tangent but I don't think people dislike Lucius because he loses sometimes, it's the fact that he's been "losing" since the Scouring but since he has the blessing of Slaanesh, he basically gets rewarded for getting killed which is dumb.

Actually that would be largely inaccurate. Until Dan Abnett depicted him in Horus Rising, Lucius made it all the way until the Scouring without being beaten. At all. Then he got killed and was resurrected via body-jacking.

 

That's the thing, Lucius was supposed to be this unbeatable person because even when you killed him, you still lost.

 

But ever since Graham McNeil took up the reins for him, he's gone from Loken punching his lights out in a sparring match to anyone and their dog who "doesn't fight fair" soundly beating him and walking away scotch-free. Sharrowkyn has even killed Lucius.

 

That's what people don't like. He's gone from unbeatable to the punching bag.

[Adra'Melek]

And if it was just the Loken thing it would have been a great character development. It wasn't even a proper fight (from memory). Unfortunately it was a nice touch that's been taken too far. The Sharrowkyn thing was obviously a "I don't take any pleasure from this" nudge nudge, wink wink, and other than a "Look at this, this is from 40k" it was relatively pointless.

[Emperor's Furor]

I liked it personally, I was tired of the loyalists getting owned and it was a breathe of fresh air seeing Lucius fall.

[deathspectersgt7]

It was a proper fight loken told him all legions fight differently.

[Wade Garrett]

 

I liked it personally, I was tired of the loyalists getting owned and it was a breathe of fresh air seeing Lucius fall.

Sharrowkyn was the third Loyalist to leave Lucius kissing canvas. How fresh could it have possibly been?

[Emperor's Furor]

Oh I mean actually "kill" an enemy, Angel Exterminatus kind of seemed a turning point, especially when that deaf Iron Hands killed Marius Vairosean.

[Honda]

 

Sharrowkyn was the third Loyalist to leave Lucius kissing canvas. How fresh could it have possibly been?

 

As far as I'm concerned, any time traitors are killed it's fresh. :)

[Kol Saresk]

It was a proper fight loken told him all legions fight differently.

I think that Thunor's_Hammer meant it was a sparring match, which it was. And like you said, the rules of the match were "win" so literally anything went.

[Phoros]

As far as I'm concerned, any time traitors are killed it's fresh.

But is "a breath of fresh air" worth invalidating the entire character of one of the most noted Heresy/CSM characters for?

[Castrmen Orth]

Up until the heresy series everything we knew was 10000 year old hearsay.

 

Now that it is being written people cry about retcons etc.

 

What we are actually seeing is events unfolding that previously have only appeared as legends and stories

[Kais Klip]

Absolutely, I can’t be the only one hoping for some of the last fights in the heresy, primarch and others, to be shaken up a bit with some gentle retcons. Just keep it prophetic; we know who dies and when, only change up the how a la Argel Tal. 

[b1soul]

I liked it personally, I was tired of the loyalists getting owned and it was a breathe of fresh air seeing Lucius fall.

 

I concur

[Kol Saresk]

No offense, but the Loyalists are supposed to get "owned" right up until the Scouring.

[Deadman Wade]

Actually, was there anyone who lost to Lucius? I remember that Lucius won a sparring match against Erebus, but nothing else.

I liked it personally, I was tired of the loyalists getting owned and it was a breathe of fresh air seeing Lucius fall.

Well, as a Night Lord fan I strongly disagree

[Wade Garrett]

Actually...when have the Loyalists been, as you kids say, owned?

 

Was it at Phall, where Polux inflicted ridiculously disproportionate casualties on the entire IV Legion and only didn't send them and their Primarch to an early grave because of Deus Ex Machina?

 

Calth? Where in spite of surprise, treachery, and wielding sorcery against enemies who were completely unprepared for it, Erebus and Kor Phaeron got most of their forces slaughtered and ran away with their tails between their legs?

 

Thramas? Where the Night Lords lost a fifth of their Legion, all their Titans, and had their Primarch chopped into confetti?

 

Well, there is Armatura...where the outnumbered Ultramarines again wiped out a disproportionate number of Traitors and almost took Lorgar, Angron, Khârn and Lotara's scalps as well.

 

Dear Loyalists:

 

In honor of the suffering you endure getting "owned" in the Heresy, I shall now pick up the world's tiniest fiddle and play a sad, sad song for all of you.

[helterskelter]

theme song from the incredible hulk? the original obviously.

now now kurze did get himself all better, then had an angel or two for breakfast, and had a nibble on an ultra land raider. granted he had trouble with two men and a bromance machine, but he blew stuff up

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, was there anyone who lost to Lucius? I remember that Lucius won a sparring match against Erebus, but nothing else.

 

The only person was that one Loyalist EC in Fulgrim who died as a plot device.

[Cavalier73]

Actually...when have the Loyalists been, as you kids say, owned?

 

Was it at Phall, where Polux inflicted ridiculously disproportionate casualties on the entire IV Legion and only didn't send them and their Primarch to an early grave because of Deus Ex Machina?

 

Calth? Where in spite of surprise, treachery, and wielding sorcery against enemies who were completely unprepared for it, Erebus and Kor Phaeron got most of their forces slaughtered and ran away with their tails between their legs?

 

Thramas? Where the Night Lords lost a fifth of their Legion, all their Titans, and had their Primarch chopped into confetti?

 

Well, there is Armatura...where the outnumbered Ultramarines again wiped out a disproportionate number of Traitors and almost took Lorgar, Angron, Khârn and Lotara's scalps as well.

 

Dear Loyalists:

 

In honor of the suffering you endure getting "owned" in the Heresy, I shall now pick up the world's tiniest fiddle and play a sad, sad song for all of you.

 

I would say more specifically the Shattered Legions than the Loyalists generally, hence the elation when Lucius falls to a member of the XIX Legion.

[Scribe]

The Shattered Legions canonically where shattered and their impact was to be minimal. Yeah it sucks, but thats the reason Corax went to the lengths he did (before it was completely fumbled in Deliverance Lost) and we see the Iron Hands going to their own extremes.

 

The Loyalists have had their wins, but Kol's right, the Loyalists are supposed to get kicked in the teeth, thats the whole point. :p

[Cavalier73]

The Shattered Legions canonically where shattered and their impact was to be minimal. Yeah it sucks, but thats the reason Corax went to the lengths he did (before it was completely fumbled in Deliverance Lost) and we see the Iron Hands going to their own extremes.

The Loyalists have had their wins, but Kol's right, the Loyalists are supposed to get kicked in the teeth, thats the whole point.

The whole point according to a Night Lord, Word Bearer and World Eater?

Obviously the Shattered will play a small part henceforward, and I don't think this is reversed by the odd moral victory here and there.

[marshal seanisi]

Actually...when have the Loyalists been, as you kids say, owned?

 

Was it at Phall, where Polux inflicted ridiculously disproportionate casualties on the entire IV Legion and only didn't send them and their Primarch to an early grave because of Deus Ex Machina?

 

Calth? Where in spite of surprise, treachery, and wielding sorcery against enemies who were completely unprepared for it, Erebus and Kor Phaeron got most of their forces slaughtered and ran away with their tails between their legs?

 

Thramas? Where the Night Lords lost a fifth of their Legion, all their Titans, and had their Primarch chopped into confetti?

 

Well, there is Armatura...where the outnumbered Ultramarines again wiped out a disproportionate number of Traitors and almost took Lorgar, Angron, Khârn and Lotara's scalps as well.

 

Dear Loyalists:

 

In honor of the suffering you endure getting "owned" in the Heresy, I shall now pick up the world's tiniest fiddle and play a sad, sad song for all of you.

This litlle planet called Isstvan V....Maybe youv'e heard of it?.

[Scribe]

Again, the Heresy, the tragic loss of the vision of the Imperium of Man, the greatest betrayal in the history of the galaxy. The entire foundation for the story of 30 and 40K.

Perhaps you've forgotten the point?

EDIT: To make it plain. Loyalists lose. You may drive us to the Eye, but the Great Crusade fails, the dream of humanity is shattered, and you never win in the end, despite any victories in battle, you lose the war.

Again, just to make that known, spoilers and all that. :p