Sevatar (thank you ADB)

[Kol Saresk]

The Shattered Legions canonically where shattered and their impact was to be minimal. Yeah it sucks, but thats the reason Corax went to the lengths he did (before it was completely fumbled in Deliverance Lost) and we see the Iron Hands going to their own extremes.

The Loyalists have had their wins, but Kol's right, the Loyalists are supposed to get kicked in the teeth, thats the whole point.

The whole point according to a Night Lord, Word Bearer and World Eater?

Obviously the Shattered will play a small part henceforward, and I don't think this is reversed by the odd moral victory here and there.

Well, until Black Library and Forgeworld started writing the Heresy, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it a war on a galactic scale where the Traitors steamrolled the Loyalists all the way until Terra, specifically where Horus was killed by the Emperor and the Traitors' resolve fell? Now we get Loyalists already pushing back the Traitors on certain fronts, holding them on others and somehow, the Loyalists still aren't getting their day in the sun?

Don't get me wrong, I actually like the back and forth. Its realistic. But I don't exactly see how compromising certain things like Lucius being an undefeated champion makes it all better. Its comparable to Sigismund getting into a fight with some no-name Alpha Legionnaire and getting a sword through his primary heart and he surviving only because a medic was able to do emergency triage just in time.

[Cavalier73]

Again, the Heresy, the tragic loss of the vision of the Imperium of Man, the greatest betrayal in the history of the galaxy. The entire foundation for the story of 30 and 40K.

Perhaps you've forgotten the point?

EDIT: To make it plain. Loyalists lose. You may drive us to the Eye, but the Great Crusade fails, the dream of humanity is shattered, and you never win in the end, despite any victories in battle, you lose the war.

Again, just to make that known, spoilers and all that.

The dream of the Emperor is certainly dead, now it is just a matter of survival which I consider to be the essence behind 40k (justifying all the totalitarianism etc.). This more general point wouldn't negate the idea of certain Loyalist victories in the Horus Heresy however.

The Shattered Legions canonically where shattered and their impact was to be minimal. Yeah it sucks, but thats the reason Corax went to the lengths he did (before it was completely fumbled in Deliverance Lost) and we see the Iron Hands going to their own extremes.

The Loyalists have had their wins, but Kol's right, the Loyalists are supposed to get kicked in the teeth, thats the whole point.

The whole point according to a Night Lord, Word Bearer and World Eater?

Obviously the Shattered will play a small part henceforward, and I don't think this is reversed by the odd moral victory here and there.

Well, until Black Library and Forgeworld started writing the Heresy, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it a war on a galactic scale where the Traitors steamrolled the Loyalists all the way until Terra, specifically where Horus was killed by the Emperor and the Traitors' resolve fell? Now we get Loyalists already pushing back the Traitors on certain fronts, holding them on others and somehow, the Loyalists still aren't getting their day in the sun?

Don't get me wrong, I actually like the back and forth. Its realistic. But I don't exactly see how compromising certain things like Lucius being an undefeated champion makes it all better. Its comparable to Sigismund getting into a fight with some no-name Alpha Legionnaire and getting a sword through his primary heart and he surviving only because a medic was able to do emergency triage just in time.

Lucius needn't have died for the sake of the Shattered Legions I agree, but then I don't write for Black Library.

[Raulmichile]

EDIT: To make it plain. Loyalists everybody lose. You may drive us to the Eye (and thus we also lose because our dream of a future of rulers of the galaxy is then shatered), but the Great Crusade fails, the dream of humanity is shattered, and you nobody never wins in the end, despite any victories in battle, you everybody lose the war.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

For those complaining about how the Heresy sofar has been a Loyalist win to date, consider that at Istvaan, a *Primarch* died. That alone is worth its weight in gold as a morale-crushing event for the Loyalists. Then the Raven Guard were reduced from about 90,000 to about 6,000. The Sallies didn't have those kinds of numbers to start with, but probably suffered propotional casualties. Call it 120,000 minimum, not counting Iron Hands casualties. Thats half again the projected Word Bearer casualties from Calt alone. The Loyalists might win the occasional skirmish, but the Drop Site was as emphatic a victory as possible.

[Scribe]

I disagree that nobody wins. Some just want to watch the world (or galaxy) burn, and burning it is.

[Xwingt65]

For those complaining about how the Heresy sofar has been a Loyalist win to date, consider that at Istvaan, a *Primarch* died. That alone is worth its weight in gold as a morale-crushing event for the Loyalists. Then the Raven Guard were reduced from about 90,000 to about 6,000. The Sallies didn't have those kinds of numbers to start with, but probably suffered propotional casualties. Call it 120,000 minimum, not counting Iron Hands casualties. Thats half again the projected Word Bearer casualties from Calt alone. The Loyalists might win the occasional skirmish, but the Drop Site was as emphatic a victory as possible.

Well, a battle doesnt get "massacre" attached to its name, if it is even close to even.

 

So yes the loyalist loose that one quite badly.

 

The first istvaan battle, the inter legion cleanup, was also a loss for the loyalists, but cost the traitors alot more marines then was planned.

[FunkyMonkey]

I'd say in 40K, only Abaddon, among the Chaos Space Marines, thinks losing the Horus Heresy is bad.  The rest of the legions and warbands seem pretty content to just dick around with the Imperium by launching the occasional incursion and slaughter things in the name of their patron god/daemon prince

[Kol Saresk]

 

For those complaining about how the Heresy sofar has been a Loyalist win to date, consider that at Istvaan, a *Primarch* died. That alone is worth its weight in gold as a morale-crushing event for the Loyalists. Then the Raven Guard were reduced from about 90,000 to about 6,000. The Sallies didn't have those kinds of numbers to start with, but probably suffered propotional casualties. Call it 120,000 minimum, not counting Iron Hands casualties. Thats half again the projected Word Bearer casualties from Calt alone. The Loyalists might win the occasional skirmish, but the Drop Site was as emphatic a victory as possible.

True, it is not a Loyalist victory feast that some scream about. Neither is it quite the Traitor steamroll others believe. Instead, it is somewhere in the middle with a slant towards the Traitors.

[Vesper]

Oh I mean actually "kill" an enemy, Angel Exterminatus kind of seemed a turning point, especially when that deaf Iron Hands killed Marius Vairosean.

 

A turning point into ridiculousness.

[Brother Captain Lucian]

Noo, not at all. Its very logical that a deaf person cant be hurt by sonic weapons..

 

 

Or not -.^

[Emperor's Furor]

Not saying the method in which it was done was sane, but the fact it happened was nice.

[Saphrael]

Is that the same Sevatar whose Legion was just broken by the Dark Angels; whose primarch had his throat cut by the Lion in a fight that lasted three seconds; who argues with his own primarch for his father's hypocrisy and inability to hold a world as efficiently as the loyalist primarchs; whose fleet was completely scattered across half the galaxy twice in two devastating retreats/losses inflicted by the Dark Angels; whose elite First Company were all butchered and captured in a vainglorious boarding action that played right into the Dark Angels' hands; and who himself is a prisoner of the First Legion, becoming the only First Captain to suffer the humiliation of capture? And this was after a protracted two-year campaign in Thramas, where their idea of victory was to run away from the Dark Angels rather than stand and fight.

 

Yeah that's the one! The guy that despite all of the above is still one of the most likable/hateable, interesting and well written of all the HH characters. The James Dean of the Heresy... but with skull trophies. I'd happily have the First endure similar (or worse) shame if it meant I got to read more about Corswain or the 'Knight Lord of Caliban' version of the Lion.

 

I mean, I kid, but... I also don't. (And I know you weren't being a meanieface, Saph. The above isn't intended as a DAMN YOU rebuttal.)

 

Thanks mate, I appreciate that because I really wasn't being snide. I was just seething my jealousy--perhaps too repetitively--as a DA fan, wishing that Sev wore a dress. I'm only human afterall and I want my toys to have the coolest toys. Besides, a little tribalism never hurt anyone, right? Oh... wait...

 

Also, I've read your considered rebuttals to fan vitriol before and I know that certainly wasn't a 'DAMN YOU' response, though I appreciate the courtesy of the clarification.

 

Now, with my tardy, gushing celebrity service complete, back to the thread!

 

Noo, not at all. Its very logical that a deaf person cant be hurt by sonic weapons..

 

 

Or not -.^

 

I've actually wondered about this, though admittedly haven't personally read the story in question. I'm assuming the 40k versions of sonic weapons do more than disrupt the ear drums, so couldn't said deaf IF marine be affected by other aspects of the weapon, pressure for example? Similar to how a blind person can't be blinded by looking into the sun, but can still be sunburned. Can anyone with a basic level of anatomy and physics shed some light on this and reveal me for the fool I am?

[depthcharge12]

@Saph

 

I imagine that the sonic weapons create a concussive wave too not just a sonic assault. I believe that more people die from the concussion wave of a high explosive round rather than just the fragmentations or flames.

 

 

So the deafness might help him against an aural assault, but won't prevent him from being ripped apart like jello by a fat kid at lunch time.

[Kol Saresk]

Sonic weapons use sonic vibrations to transmit kinetic energy. In theory.

 

All the eardrum does it take sonic vibrations and translate them into "sound" so we can understand it.

 

All a lack of eardrums would do is keep the victim from hearing(lolol!) what killed them.

[SFH]

Didn't this thread originally start as a presentation on a piece of Horus Heresy artwork? How did we get to Lucius and Angel Exterminatus?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Didn't this thread originally start as a presentation on a piece of Horus Heresy artwork? How did we get to Lucius and Angel Exterminatus?

 

"Oh, what tangled web we weave..."

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Probably got there because these guys are awesome..................like a boss.

[Balthamal]

Personally I think it's a good thing that the loyalists get to tally some significant wins. From a narrative stand point it would be bland and boring if every book churned out was a case of: Traitors went here. They killed everyone. They went somewhere else. They killed everyone et all. Yes we know how it ends, but from the period in time that information is presented to us, only a few events are known to have occurred. Namely, Istvaan, Calth, Signus, Tallarn, Terra. Everything else is myth and legend. So what if the actual story is changed? If it is in such a way that it is believable how it could be misconstrued in 10,000 years that's perfectly fine with me.

 

In terms of the wider narrative of the Heresy, I think it would be great if it appears the loyalists are beginning to gather a few momentum building victories. If all we're doing is ticking off steps on the way to Terra by chalking up yet more traitor wins it cheapens it. Personally I think having the loyalists starting to really hit back hard would add even more gloss to Horus' genius in striking for Terra with only 3 Legions defending it. 

[Tenebris]

Well the Tharmas Crusade and the Battle of Phall were some serious victories for team loyalist. Both inflicted severe damage to two traitor legions, one even recovered a powerful archeotech warp device and so on. The loyalist are kicking back but the books so far are describing what are in fact the opening salvoes of the HH, where the surprise factor is still high, the Ruinstorm has been unleashed and by the time of Unremembered Empire it is clear that the loyalists are coming out of shock and are regrouping as best as they can. Also Prospero can be considered a loyalist victory too albeit a sour one. 

 

At this moment in the HH story arc the traitors are in ascendant and the loyalist are regrouping. I think when this major introduction in the HH era end we will be seeing loyalists victorious by the day and the traitor legions slowly fragmenting. 

[Týr]

I've actually wondered about this, though admittedly haven't personally read the story in question. I'm assuming the 40k versions of sonic weapons do more than disrupt the ear drums, so couldn't said deaf IF marine be affected by other aspects of the weapon, pressure for example? Similar to how a blind person can't be blinded by looking into the sun, but can still be sunburned. Can anyone with a basic level of anatomy and physics shed some light on this and reveal me for the fool I am?

 

I believe that sonic weapons just work like a huge amplifier. It emits high intensity sound waves. Sound waves are waves that propagate through a medium. You just start a vibration of the particles, that constitute the medium the wave are to travel through. As one particle gains kinetic energy it transmit it's energy to the particles around it and now they vibrate. Then they exchange the kinetic energy to the particles around them and so on. This way you see a transfer of kinetic energy as a wave. Note the average position of the particles over time does not change. That means the particles do not travel with the wave. 

 

So a deaf person being immune to sonic weapons is as riddiculus as sayng a person without shoes can't walk. 

[Vesper]

Can't wait for the time a blind Astarte end up being unkillable because the blades of his enemies aren't real if he can't see them.

[Týr]

Can't wait for the time a blind Astarte end up being unkillable because the blades of his enemies aren't real if he can't see them.

 

Sounds like something you can find in the Grey Knights or Blood Angels codex.

[DarKnight]

 

 

 

I'm a total DA fan boy but Sevatar is one of the best written, interesting characters in the HH. Most people people only seem to value the very best fighters. I see a lot of hate piled on characters like Lucius because they sometimes lose fights. To me you don't have a equal to sigismund to be interesting. A well written character that has more facits to his personality then the generic "hulk smash" of most marines, is by far much more fun to read about. Sevatar i a good fighter but that isn 't what makes him likeable, it's the fact that unlike 98% of most asartes he has a sense of humor.

Kinda a tangent but I don't think people dislike Lucius because he loses sometimes, it's the fact that he's been "losing" since the Scouring but since he has the blessing of Slaanesh, he basically gets rewarded for getting killed which is dumb.

Actually that would be largely inaccurate. Until Dan Abnett depicted him in Horus Rising, Lucius made it all the way until the Scouring without being beaten. At all. Then he got killed and was resurrected via body-jacking.

 

That's the thing, Lucius was supposed to be this unbeatable person because even when you killed him, you still lost.

 

But ever since Graham McNeil took up the reins for him, he's gone from Loken punching his lights out in a sparring match to anyone and their dog who "doesn't fight fair" soundly beating him and walking away scotch-free. Sharrowkyn has even killed Lucius.

 

That's what people don't like. He's gone from unbeatable to the punching bag.

Not to nit pick, but does it actually say he's undefeated, or is he just a preternaturally even for Astartes standards swordsman?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 Also Prospero can be considered a loyalist victory too albeit a sour one.

 

Prospero is in no way a Loyalist victory.  It pitted two "loyal" Legions against each other, and each caused massive casualties to the other.  So while the Thousand Sons were gutted, the battle pushed them -- eventually -- into the Traitor camp, increasing the number of Traitor Marines (by a small amount), Legions (effective numbers aside, it's a morale thing), and Primarchs (an important consideration).  It also had the effect of greatly reducing the number of Space Wolves prowling the Imperium. . . also a good thing for the Traitors.

[Komrk]

As a Raven Guard played I enjoy every little victory that the loyalists have. Losing 87,000 Marines does that to you. Victory is Vengeance.