Huron & Helbrute extra attack question

[mschrieb]

I am posting this here because it directly applies to 2 csn models I intend to use in a list I am making.

 

Basically my question are as follows:

1) Would Huron get the attack bonus for having 2 melee weapons if he attacks with his power axe?

2) Would a helbrute get the attack bonus for 2 melee weapons when it attacks with power scourge while also equipped with a power fist?

 

The issue is obvious with the speciality weapons, but the wording for speciality weapons is for when attacking with that weapon. While the rules for the attack bonus just says you need 2 weapons when the melee rule.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[Wraith776]

"A model fighting with the weapon does not receive +1 attack for fighting with two weapons unless both weapons have the specialist weapon rule." pg42 BRB

 

I'm not at all sure, but the way I take it is you cannot receive +1 attack if using the specialist weapon, but the wording to me shows that you could if using the regular.

[mschrieb]

This is exactly what I am thinking. If I use the non-specialist weapon then I can claim the extra attack. Can anybody confirm that this is not the case?

[BitsHammer]

If he had a pistol (or CCW), Axe, and the Tyrant's Claw, yes. He does not, so he does not get a bonus attack as both of his weapons are not Specialist Weapons (since the Tyrant's Claw is a specialist weapon and he has no third CCW they both must be Specialist Weapons to claim the attack).

[Flint13]

Fulkes, can you site a page number reference for this?

 

I've always played it as the Specialist Weapon requires another weapon with the Specialist Weapon rule to get +1 attack, but any weapon without the specialist rule only needs another weapon with the melee type.

 

Page 42 in the BRB states "A model fighting with this weapon does not recieve +1 attack for fighting with two weapons unless both weapons have the Specialist Weapon rule."

 

Looking over the rules on Pg24 of the BRB, it also doesn't mention specialist weapons. It says "Engaged models with two single handed weapons (often a melee weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get +1 attack. Models with more than two weapons get no additional benefit." Nothing requiring or restricting either of those weapons from being specialist.

 

Neither of Huron's weapons are two-handed, so it looks like he gets the bonus attack when he's utilizing his power axe. Looks like the same deal for the hellbrute as well.

 

It makes sense from a fluffy point of view as well. The powerfist requires a degree of finesse and skill to use, and requires another weapon of equal balance to effectively work with. The axe, on the other hand, is just an axe. Doesn't matter if the other weapon is a sword, pistol, big rock, or deactivated power fist.

[Shaolin_Monkey]

The bit you quoted from page 42 seems to pretty clearly say you don't get +1 attack.

I would say that "fighting with this weapon" would include being in combat and using it for a second weapon.

But just another not so well clarified point from GW.

[totgeboren]

Regarding Dreads, the rules for Walkers say (in bold text even)

"If a Walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons it gains +1 Attack for each additional weapon after the first." It doesn't state if they are affected by the specialist weapon rule or not.

 

Hmmm, and the specialist weapon rule state you do not receive +1 attack for fighting with two weapons unless both weapons have the specialist weapon rule.

So a Dread with a fist and scourge would get no bonus, but a Defiler with two fists and a scourge would get +2 attacks for fighting with three weapons. (Two specialist weapons, then walker rule for +1 attack for fighting with three weapons).

 

On the other hand the Dread could call upon the vehicle walker rules on page 84 and state that he is not using the rules on page 24 gain extra attacks, since those rules also explicitly state that you do not gain more attacks for having more than two weapons, he is using the rules on page 84 to gain extra attacks, and the Specialist weapon rule only affects those who use the rules on page 24 to claim extra attacks (that is, infantry and monsters).

 

I personally think the idea is that walkers do not care about the specialist weapon rule, since they do not care about the unwieldy rule, and I just think GW forgot to add the vehicle exception to the specialist weapon rule, since this is the first time this has come up in the game. To my knowledge no other walker in the game has access to weapons with both specialist weapon and normal rules.

[BitsHammer]

Fulkes, can you site a page number reference for this?

 

I've always played it as the Specialist Weapon requires another weapon with the Specialist Weapon rule to get +1 attack, but any weapon without the specialist rule only needs another weapon with the melee type.

 

Page 42 in the BRB states "A model fighting with this weapon does not recieve +1 attack for fighting with two weapons unless both weapons have the Specialist Weapon rule."

 

Looking over the rules on Pg24 of the BRB, it also doesn't mention specialist weapons. It says "Engaged models with two single handed weapons (often a melee weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get +1 attack. Models with more than two weapons get no additional benefit." Nothing requiring or restricting either of those weapons from being specialist.

 

Neither of Huron's weapons are two-handed, so it looks like he gets the bonus attack when he's utilizing his power axe. Looks like the same deal for the hellbrute as well.

 

It makes sense from a fluffy point of view as well. The powerfist requires a degree of finesse and skill to use, and requires another weapon of equal balance to effectively work with. The axe, on the other hand, is just an axe. Doesn't matter if the other weapon is a sword, pistol, big rock, or deactivated power fist.

Page 42 pretty much covers it. He's only two weapons, so to get the bonus both have to be Specialist Weapons. If he had a third floating in there somewhere it wouldn't be an issue, but as I read the rules it goes both ways. Otherwise I could just slap a Power Sword and a Power Fist on my Sergeants and they'd be able to get +1 attack when I use the Power Sword. 

 

Then again I'm partial to this interpretation as it's largely based on how these kind of weapons worked in 5th (only they got slightly better because they don't need to be paired like Power Fist/Power Fist to get the bonus now, it just needs to be two Specialist weapons).

 

Regarding Dreads, the rules for Walkers say (in bold text even)

"If a Walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons it gains +1 Attack for each additional weapon after the first." It doesn't state if they are affected by the specialist weapon rule or not.

 

Hmmm, and the specialist weapon rule state you do not receive +1 attack for fighting with two weapons unless both weapons have the specialist weapon rule.

So a Dread with a fist and scourge would get no bonus, but a Defiler with two fists and a scourge would get +2 attacks for fighting with three weapons. (Two specialist weapons, then walker rule for +1 attack for fighting with three weapons).

 

On the other hand the Dread could call upon the vehicle walker rules on page 84 and state that he is not using the rules on page 24 gain extra attacks, since those rules also explicitly state that you do not gain more attacks for having more than two weapons, he is using the rules on page 84 to gain extra attacks, and the Specialist weapon rule only affects those who use the rules on page 24 to claim extra attacks (that is, infantry and monsters).

 

I personally think the idea is that walkers do not care about the specialist weapon rule, since they do not care about the unwieldy rule, and I just think GW forgot to add the vehicle exception to the specialist weapon rule, since this is the first time this has come up in the game. To my knowledge no other walker in the game has access to weapons with both specialist weapon and normal rules.

 

I'd say they're affected by the Specialist Rule unless GW comes out and says they're not. It works fine for game play purposes and doesn't break anything, even if it's a little inconvenient for the Scourge to not give a +1 when paired with the Power Fist.