The Outcast D.. wait did that just happen?

[Kol Saresk]

I think you mean Predator'd.......

 

[Deus Imperator Vult]

But even that foul (totally badass) Xenos doesn't do it while Billy is still alive and isn't punching through inches of ceremite plating, fibre muscle bundles, mesh underlayer and bodyglove.

[Kol Saresk]

But even that foul (totally badass) Xenos doesn't do it while Billy is still alive and isn't punching through inches of ceremite plating, fibre muscle bundles, mesh underlayer and bodyglove.

Well, ceramite is just fire-proofing. Its everything underneath that apparently is the special special goodie that could withstand even a 0.75 caliber, armor piercing, high explosive, rocket-propelled projectile. Which is why the Alpha Legion had to develop the banestrike bolt rounds, which are Astartes plate piercing.

 

Honestly, the only thing I can think of that makes this scenario plausible without suspension of belief is that since Custodian plate was made for bodyguard duty and not wartime, it isn't as strong as Astartes plate. Now, before the idea gets scoffed at, IIRC, the artwork depicting the Custodes usually shows them as being more properly proportioned versus Astartes. It looks form fitting. So unless the Custodes are ridiculously skinny in physique, their armor has to be thinner in order to account for the more proper proportioning.

 

As to how a World Eater can punch through the armor plate and the metal-infused rib plate and not break his hand, that I can't answer. But if the first part is a sound theory, then the second part is all that requires suspension of disbelief. Which is better than the original concept.

[evilmittens]

I did not like the scene either, but sort of chalked it up to the guard wearing thinner "corrections officer' armor and being the guy who mans the jail level of badass.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Trust the thrice damned Alpha Legion to specifically make 'stab your brother in the back' bullets. Anyway, before I get into a rant. I did consider the thinner armour thing but even then it just seems like a cheap way of 'how can we make this guy look tough?'

 

Personally I think the subtle approach make's for a more threatening character. How Argel Tal threatens Erebus in Betrayer (that's vague enough not to need Spoliers right?) or the Description of how Russ look's at people in A Thousand Sons something about it being the same wa a butcher looks at a carcass if I remember rightly. Anyway, it's those bits that make a threatening character not 'And then he headbutted a squad of Ultramarines to death without breaking a sweat.'

[E.G.J.]

I don't know if that particular scenario irked me as much in The Outcast Dead.  There were so many things that were off with that book, even if I have to admit I kinda enjoyed it.

 

But the whole thing about whether or not a WE can kill a custodes is not that far fetched.  Custodes are not invincible.  Phenomenally good fighters, yes, but how far one is willing to take that is up to one's own imagination.  When I thought about this earlier I went about it a little backwards and started by trying to rank different warriors and entities (a rough rank mind you)  I came up with Emperor > Primarch > Custodes > Astartes.  Then I asked myself how many of each I'd expect would be needed to kill another. 

 

How many custodes to kill a primarch??  I don't know if their purpose was to kill Lorgar if he stepped out of line or not, but how many did Big E send along with the former in TFH?  3 or 4 right?  Are we willing to go along with that, that 3 custodes could kill a primarch?  Personally I'm not, but if we do then it's going to take quite a few astartes to bring down a custodes because we've seen example after example of primarch's wading through squad after squad of enemy space marines.

 

In my mind primarchs and Big E are in categories of their own.  And when we think about it, what would Big E need the custodes to fight against that he cannot himself?  Errr, Eldar?  Seemed when the warp spilled into his palace in this same novel he handled that himself.  Does he need them against the primarchs?  He was after all laid low by a primarch (with some help from the 4 chaos gods).  I don't know, I'm mostly throwing this stuff out there as food for thought.  I arrive at the conclusion that custodes aren't that much more powerful than a space marine, and exist mainly as elite combatants for a breach of the Imperial Palace.  Individually, warriors from each category are going to weigh in at different levels of skill, strength, etc.  So a highly motivated, very angry World Eater who has just gained his one chance for freedom, against a custodes whose duty is apparently to be a prison guard.....I can go along with that.  

 

I can go along with that a lot more than I am willing to imagine a primarch clawing his way through rubble and rock, somehow in all his superhuman magnificence he doesn't know what direction he's going, only to emerge and keep a titan from stomping on him with his bare hands.....nails or no nails, if he can do that, then a regular World Eater can play Mortal Combat charades with a custodes prison guard.  

[Deus Imperator Vult]

The issue isn't with the concept that a WE couldn't kill a Castodian more the over the top method of killing him. Yes the information we are given says Castodes are superlative fighters and, in one case, enough to give a Primarch pause but that doesn't mean they can't be beaten. You say the Primarch's are in a league of their own but (Reflection Crack'd Spoilers)

Fulgrim gets beaten unconcious by 4 (6) of his captains

and (Fear to Tread Spoilers)

Russ seems to think a squad of his men can lay his brothers low

. Hell in Battle for the Fang

one Wolf Lord manages to hold his own against a chaos powered Magnus albeit for a few moments

.

 

The thing with Angron being underground and not knowing how to get up was more that he was lost to the nails, atleast that's how I read it, one of his brothers would have stopped, thought, maybe used some sort of preternatural power to realise which way to go.

[E.G.J.]

The issue isn't with the concept that a WE couldn't kill a Castodian more the over the top method of killing him. Yes the information we are given says Castodes are superlative fighters and, in one case, enough to give a Primarch pause but that doesn't mean they can't be beaten. You say the Primarch's are in a league of their own but (Reflection Crack'd Spoilers)

Fulgrim gets beaten unconcious by 4 (6) of his captains

and (Fear to Tread Spoilers)

Russ seems to think a squad of his men can lay his brothers low

. Hell in Battle for the Fang

one Wolf Lord manages to hold his own against a chaos powered Magnus albeit for a few moments

.

 

The thing with Angron being underground and not knowing how to get up was more that he was lost to the nails, atleast that's how I read it, one of his brothers would have stopped, thought, maybe used some sort of preternatural power to realise which way to go

 

Hence why I prefaced that with, "In my mind."  There have been plenty of encounters throughout the HH series that might give readers pause.  The scene from Reflection Crack'd that you mention for example.  Some might take issue with a primarch being manhandled that way, others may say he let them, others are ok because it happened to Fulgrim, but would scream to high heaven if it was Angron.  It's subjective.  Moaning about one such instance, or the manner of a particular kill, while trying hard to justify other equally implausible scenarios is therefore a bit nonsensical.  

 

You're 100% ok with using the nails to explain Angron's crawl through rubble and bedrock and his complete inability to know where he was or what direction he was going in.  That's cool.  Personally I have a hard time thinking that an angry Angron who just had a building collapse on him would tunnel about like a haphazard mole rather than emerge somewhat quicker and more unidirectionally.  But hey, Sergeant Tagore has the nails too......yet he's not allowed to punch through a custodes....Angron can hold up a titan while another primarch gets KO'd by his captains?   OK.

 

It comes down to one's own personal take on the universe and how to treat these various narrative inconsistencies, I guess. 

[Kol Saresk]

Angron is a Primarch. The impossible is expected of him.

 

Tagore is an Astartes. How many other Astartes do we have punching through tank armor with their literally bare hands and coming away unscratched?

[Deus Imperator Vult]

I wasn't disagreeing with you let's be honest the way the Primarchs are portrayed varies so wildly from book to book, author to author that there isn't ever a 'right' answer either way. Also on the Fulgrim front you can also point out that he takes a sort of perverse pleasure in what's happening so could allow himself to be subdued where others wouldn't. Yes we are moaning but this thread is specifically about moaning about a specific kill and that was all I was saying in my previous reply. I don't think I need to try particularly hard to justify the Angron burrowing section, to my mind at least I agree it's subjective. We know from Butchers Nails that Angron completely blacks out when the nails take control to the point he doesn't even realise the ship he is on has been disabled. He even forgoes his sense of vision since he has to wipe the blood from his eyes before he can see Khârn infront of him. So, if he is completely lost to the nails when the building comes down on him and that impact knocks him on his face he will just continue to push in that direction not having the presence of mind to reorient himself.

 

As far as the kill goes however it is not the presence of the nails that does or doesn't make the kill inprobable; it's the fact that if armour is designed to stop a solid round travaling at the speed of sound how does it crumple like tin to a fist traveling, at most, a third of that velocity.

[E.G.J.]

Angron is a Primarch. The impossible is expected of him.

 

Tagore is an Astartes. How many other Astartes do we have punching through tank armor with their literally bare hands and coming away unscratched?

Fulgrim is a primarch....he gets KO'd by astartes because the prissy is expected of him?

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Angron is a Primarch. The impossible is expected of him.

 

Tagore is an Astartes. How many other Astartes do we have punching through tank armor with their literally bare hands and coming away unscratched?

Fulgrim is a primarch....he gets KO'd by astartes because the prissy is expected of him?

 

 

Guilliman was hospitalized by a handful of Astartes. A single Astartes made Curze bleed while six Wolves managed to stick an axe in his spine. And another instance an Astartes shoved a sword through his spine. Quite literally. There are plenty of instances where one or a few are able to do damage to a Primarch. But there is only one instance of an Astartes punching through tank armor with his literally bare hand and not getting a scratch.

 

And its the "not getting a scratch" part that is messing with people. If Tagore had broken his hand, it'd be one thing. IIRC, he didn't even rub his knuckles raw. That's what is messing with people. Not the fact that it happened, but the fact that what should have been part of the results wasn't.

[E.G.J.]

I wasn't disagreeing with you let's be honest the way the Primarchs are portrayed varies so wildly from book to book, author to author that there isn't ever a 'right' answer either way. Also on the Fulgrim front you can also point out that he takes a sort of perverse pleasure in what's happening so could allow himself to be subdued where others wouldn't. Yes we are moaning but this thread is specifically about moaning about a specific kill and that was all I was saying in my previous reply. I don't think I need to try particularly hard to justify the Angron burrowing section, to my mind at least I agree it's subjective. We know from Butchers Nails that Angron completely blacks out when the nails take control to the point he doesn't even realise the ship he is on has been disabled. He even forgoes his sense of vision since he has to wipe the blood from his eyes before he can see Khârn infront of him. So, if he is completely lost to the nails when the building comes down on him and that impact knocks him on his face he will just continue to push in that direction not having the presence of mind to reorient himself.

 

As far as the kill goes however it is not the presence of the nails that does or doesn't make the kill inprobable; it's the fact that if armour is designed to stop a solid round travaling at the speed of sound how does it crumple like tin to a fist traveling, at most, a third of that velocity.

 

I agree.  And as far as the portrayal of the nails and what they do to both primarch and legion, that is one thing I dislike about ADB's portrayal of them.  I didn't need Angron to be a Shakespearean tragedy or a hapless victim of circumstance.  I'd much prefer willful malice to explain his fall.  I still like the yarn that ADB wove for us, it just didn't jive with what I ideally wanted hear.  I'm ok with it either way....

 

But to stay on topic.  Tagore's custodes kill was a bit cartoony, but I remember reading it initially and going...hmm, pretty hardcore that.  In retrospect it's silly of course, but at that moment in time when I first read it I gave it mind-applause.  It didn't really grate on me in terms of its plausibility because I've never really thought of custodes as being that formidable in comparison to Astartes.

 

But to be fair, and for full disclosures (so to speak), I was at the same time all hacked about how powerful the Thunderwarriors were in the same novel, so I'll just take my hypocritical self and hide under a blanket now.

[Wade Garrett]

If anybody thinks Fulgrim was legitimately beaten down in RC instead of throwing the fight so he and his captains could have a rousing session of bonding-via- homosexual subtext group torture, I have a bridge in Nova Yoruk to sell you.

[Veteran Sergeant]

 

As to how a World Eater can punch through the armor plate and the metal-infused rib plate and not break his hand, that I can't answer. 

It's really the problem with depicting hand to hand combat with Space Marines. You're basically talking about having a fist fight between two walls, using their hands, which, Spess Marine or not, are still made up of many small bones. I actually had to think about that one when I was writing a small bit of fluff for my army. How do Space Marines fight hand to hand? hands break ridiculously easily, so even with armored gauntlets, you're talking about a ton of shock trauma if you're punching other armored targets.

 

They'd have to be working more on attacking joints and striking with more sturdy strike surfaces. 

 

But yeah, rule of cool and all that such. It sounds cool to have a Spess Mahreen punch a hole in a Custodian. So we'll pretend it didn't completely shatter his hand in the process. Suit's got drugs for that yo. ;)

[E.G.J.]

If anybody thinks Fulgrim was legitimately beaten down in RC instead of throwing the fight so he and his captains could have a rousing session of bonding-via- homosexual subtext group torture, I have a bridge in Nova Yoruk to sell you.

 

Well, he's either pretending and going along with it because otherwise, even if he let it happen, his primarch frame got KO'd by astartes while his bro Angron got stepped on by a Titan and decided to use it as an temporary windbreak.  Would the argument then be that space marines punch as hard(er) as a titan steps?  Solves the whole punching through a custodes, doesn't it? 

[Kol Saresk]

Not if Angron was using biomancy to boost his strength. He is a primarch after all.

[E.G.J.]

Not if Angron was using biomancy to boost his strength. He is a primarch after all.

 

Maybe Angron suspends his distaste for psykers when he's lost to the nails?  Maybe he also wakes up sometime with a giant post nail hang-over and wonders who made all those pink origami butterflies and glued them to the wall.  Only to realize he's had another crafting episode while lost to the nails........and he gets mad all over again.

[Kol Saresk]

You're assuming that he is conscious of using it. Which would be saying something since he usually isn't conscious of much do to the fact that he is a psyker who had implants that make psykers self-destruct rammed into his brain. That alone says screwy things should happen around Angron.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

 

I wasn't disagreeing with you let's be honest the way the Primarchs are portrayed varies so wildly from book to book, author to author that there isn't ever a 'right' answer either way. Also on the Fulgrim front you can also point out that he takes a sort of perverse pleasure in what's happening so could allow himself to be subdued where others wouldn't. Yes we are moaning but this thread is specifically about moaning about a specific kill and that was all I was saying in my previous reply. I don't think I need to try particularly hard to justify the Angron burrowing section, to my mind at least I agree it's subjective. We know from Butchers Nails that Angron completely blacks out when the nails take control to the point he doesn't even realise the ship he is on has been disabled. He even forgoes his sense of vision since he has to wipe the blood from his eyes before he can see Khârn infront of him. So, if he is completely lost to the nails when the building comes down on him and that impact knocks him on his face he will just continue to push in that direction not having the presence of mind to reorient himself.

 

As far as the kill goes however it is not the presence of the nails that does or doesn't make the kill inprobable; it's the fact that if armour is designed to stop a solid round travaling at the speed of sound how does it crumple like tin to a fist traveling, at most, a third of that velocity.

 

I agree.  And as far as the portrayal of the nails and what they do to both primarch and legion, that is one thing I dislike about ADB's portrayal of them.  I didn't need Angron to be a Shakespearean tragedy or a hapless victim of circumstance.  I'd much prefer willful malice to explain his fall.  I still like the yarn that ADB wove for us, it just didn't jive with what I ideally wanted hear.  I'm ok with it either way....

 

But to stay on topic.  Tagore's custodes kill was a bit cartoony, but I remember reading it initially and going...hmm, pretty hardcore that.  In retrospect it's silly of course, but at that moment in time when I first read it I gave it mind-applause.  It didn't really grate on me in terms of its plausibility because I've never really thought of custodes as being that formidable in comparison to Astartes.

 

But to be fair, and for full disclosures (so to speak), I was at the same time all hacked about how powerful the Thunderwarriors were in the same novel, so I'll just take my hypocritical self and hide under a blanket now.

See I understand that. I really like the tragic elements of Angron's character but if that doesn't sit well with your personal opinions of how the character should be I can see how it would get on your nerves. Hell I was nearly screaming as I forced myself through Deliverance Lost because Corax had somehow become an idiot in the flight from Isstvan to Terra.

 

I agree with you to be fair in a cartoony Dragon Ball Z type sense I was like 'yeahh don't f**k with the 12th' it was only that immediatly after I was like 'wait, what!?' Have you listened to Sword of Truth? And/or read Nemesis? Those may make you rethink your view of the Castodians.

 

A blanket of faith, brother?

 

If anybody thinks Fulgrim was legitimately beaten down in RC instead of throwing the fight so he and his captains could have a rousing session of bonding-via- homosexual subtext group torture, I have a bridge in Nova Yoruk to sell you.

The pear of anguish did seem excessive damn Slanesshi perverts.

[[TA]Typher]

If anybody thinks Fulgrim was legitimately beaten down in RC instead of throwing the fight so he and his captains could have a rousing session of bonding-via- homosexual subtext group torture, I have a bridge in Nova Yoruk to sell you.

 

You are correct. Fulgrim specifically states in that book that he did it to give his captains the pleasure of the experience. They did not beat him. He let them win. 

 

This guy punched a Eldar Avatar of war to death with his bare hands. A living God! 3 or 4 hyper-metrosexual astartes wouldn't touch him in a fight.

 

Hell, Guilliman was almost naked and he killed a whole squad of heavily armed alpha legion with just a desk, a bust of some dead guy and his chuck norris round house.

 

 

 

 

All in all it was a poorly written part of the book. I'd like to see the Custodians placed back on the Elite of the elite stage where they belong. If not the siege of terra will be a little lackluster if WE are just de-boning them like thanksgiving turkeys. They should be stronger/better than Astartes, but extremely finite compared to the marines.

[Kol Saresk]

Although his hands did get burned by said Avatar's blood.....

 

 

And shhhh! Don't mention the naked Guilliman beating ten Alpha Legion to dead with a marble bust! People get irrational that a Primarch wearing ceremonial armor could get injured by ten bolters shooting at him while has no where to go!

[Veteran Sergeant]

People get irrational about that, but Lorgar survived a plasma blastgun to the face. And then he gets stepped on by a Titan and Angron holds it up Mighty Mouse style.

 

 

I'd think with that precedent established, Guilliman could have beaten those Alpha Legionnaires to death with a throw pillow and it still would have been realistic. 

[Conn Eremon]

They really don't work as precedents.

 

Guilliman had speed and light, partial armor in a tight space to aid in his defense.

Lorgar had a psychic shield strong enough to actually stop the blast, if not the heat of being so near to it.

 

Angron's feat of strength and endurance was an impressive gym workout.

Guilliman's was withstanding multiple explosions blowing holes into his body.

[Kol Saresk]

People get irrational about that, but Lorgar survived a plasma blastgun to the face. And then he gets stepped on by a Titan and Angron holds it up Mighty Mouse style.

 

 

I'd think with that precedent established, Guilliman could have beaten those Alpha Legionnaires to death with a throw pillow and it still would have been realistic.

As it is, he used a marble bust. :P

 

And all three Primarchs spent time healing afterwards. Lorgar had to use enuncia just to get out of bed faster.

 

And I'm still advocating that Angron uses biomancy instinctively to increase his strength to super Primarch levels.