The Outcast D.. wait did that just happen?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Having read "The Long Games at Carcharias" I am afraid I must greet the notion of the Alpha Legion as the 41st millenia Chaos punching bags with hysterical giggling.

 

I see your :cuss y short story and raise you a :cuss y novel, The Hunt for Voldorius, where a Daemon Prince gets murderized with ease by a captain with a power sword.  I can start pulling examples out of the battle histories from the codices too, if you'd like, where every mention of the Alpha Legion -- with the sole exception of the Emperor's Swords incident -- ends with the Legion getting its ass whooped.

[Wade Garrett]

I'm a Word Bearer.

 

Do you really want to play "Whose Legion can't win for losing?" with me?

 

Also, TWO short stories.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

And I think the Space Wolves are getting too much screen time.  How do they ever seem to fight Legion-scale battles if their entire strength is spread to the four winds, sending packs to every corner of the galaxy?

 

The Alpha Legion has always been an underdeveloped faction within the fluff.  When the drum total of their background was the Index Astartes article and a quarter-page blurb in the 3.5 C:CSM, their whole schtick was "attack from more than one direction at once" combined with "hidden bases used to raise cults" and the occasional "misdirection of Imperial resources."  What we're getting now is adding actual depth and character to the XXth, which can only be a good thing.  Whether you enjoy it or not is irrelevant to the rest of the community, and it's especially insulting to Alpha Legion fans who have been waiting patiently for our time in the sun.

 

This is especially grievous when you consider that the Alpha Legion has become the Chaos Marine punching bag of the 41st Millennium.

See now if that is the reason they are getting cameos in everyone elses books thats a little more understandable. Despite reading the books for maybe 7 years now I accept I'm still reletively new to the fluff adding that to the fact I don't play the table top game I realise I have gaps in my knowledge when it comes to things from the Index astartes or any of the codices. I don't begrudge the Alpha Legion fans their favourites getting some attention my personal opinion is just that they are getting a little too much. I always try and preface this with, or make it obvious that, this is just my opinion and I do only try to mention it in threads where it is relevent. The point I was trying to make was that the way they were portrayed as supremely intelligent while the Raven Guard were shown with an almost comical level stupidity in Deliverance Lost was another moment like the one we were debating in Outcast Dead.

 

I have to say I haven't read that many 40k titles where the Alpha Legion featured but I absolutly see your point about Voldorius he was so two dimensional and literally could have been from any Legion and, if I'm honest, that fact ruined my immersion too. The book was basically just a character piece for Ko'sarro and Shrike which while I enjoyed would have been better if it felt like they were fighting real opposition not 'generic chaos space marine A.'

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah but Deliverance Lost was a quirk of Gav Thorpe, not an overwhelming plot to make the Alpha Legion the Super-Marines. I hope.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Before we get any deeper into this -- and its discussion that I don't really want to have, since its driven by plot considerations rather than logic -- I'm going to mention that its all off-topic, so it should be taken to a new thread.

[Karthak]

And yet Garro could beat one. Because they are a match. Their training is not meant for warfare. Its meant to kill as a bodyguard. That's why they do things like the Blood Games, the sole purpose of which is to identify weaknesses in the Palace's defenses and how well the defense could respond to the threat of an intruder once identified. They are to Lions as the Astartes are to Wolves. Their strengths might be different to those of an Astartes, but their weaknesses even out the balance.

 

Still, that doesn't justify a barehand punching through power armor.

Hmm. I think I read that Lions vs Wolves reference in The First Heretic.

 

And it makes no sense whatsoever, since both species are pack hunters. A more accurate comparison would have been Tigers vs Wolves.

[Kol Saresk]

Au contraire. A group of Lions does live as a Pride, true. But each member has a habit of hunting individually. When they do hunt together, it is uncoordinated, each member fending for itself.

 

Wolves on the other hand coordinate their hunts to surprising degrees. Watch a video of a pack of wolves attacking a moose. Notice how they constantly circle it and everytime it attacks one, another is attacking it from behind.

 

That's the differemce. Custodes might live as a pack, but they all act individually. Astartes on the other hand, are strengthened by the presence of their brethren.

[helterskelter]

could angron just not be a hard nut? he has dug his way out of collapsed structures twice, no real mention of anything more than he's hard, mental frequently, and holds little but contempt for his lubrarians even when they point him the right way. Not all the primarchs have powers. i accept this. don't you think it'd be useful for team alpha to have corax's or kurze's powers? but they don't they have tech for that. it would be ironic if angron had powers, and that would make me chuckle. however we will never know thanks to lorgar.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Is it just me or does everyone who complains about the Traitor Legions being OP or getting to much attention support a loyalist legion?

[Rain]

Au contraire. A group of Lions does live as a Pride, true. But each member has a habit of hunting individually. When they do hunt together, it is uncoordinated, each member fending for itself.

 

Wolves on the other hand coordinate their hunts to surprising degrees. Watch a video of a pack of wolves attacking a moose. Notice how they constantly circle it and everytime it attacks one, another is attacking it from behind.

 

That's the differemce. Custodes might live as a pack, but they all act individually. Astartes on the other hand, are strengthened by the presence of their brethren.

 

What? Lions do coordinate their hunting. A single lioness will stalk a herd and drive a chosen individual toward a group of lionesses waiting in ambush to take down the prey. ADB was just trying to refer to the idea that a single lion (especially a male lion) is stronger than a wolf, but a pack of wolves is better coordinated and more deadly than a single lion. It's not really meant to be taken literally or thought about too much, it just means that Custodes are "better" individually, while Astartes benefit more from being part of a unit as a unit of Astartes is greater than the sum of its parts.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Au contraire. A group of Lions does live as a Pride, true. But each member has a habit of hunting individually. When they do hunt together, it is uncoordinated, each member fending for itself.

 

Wolves on the other hand coordinate their hunts to surprising degrees. Watch a video of a pack of wolves attacking a moose. Notice how they constantly circle it and everytime it attacks one, another is attacking it from behind.

 

That's the differemce. Custodes might live as a pack, but they all act individually. Astartes on the other hand, are strengthened by the presence of their brethren.

What? Lions do coordinate their hunting. A single lioness will stalk a herd and drive a chosen individual toward a group of lionesses waiting in ambush to take down the prey. ADB was just trying to refer to the idea that a single lion (especially a male lion) is stronger than a wolf, but a pack of wolves is better coordinated and more deadly than a single lion. It's not really meant to be taken literally or thought about too much, it just means that Custodes are "better" individually, while Astartes benefit more from being part of a unit as a unit of Astartes is greater than the sum of its parts.

Actually male lions typically send the lionesses out to hunt, and from there, they either hunt individually or together, but the pack does not go out on every hunt. Very rarely will the whole pride go hunting.

 

On the other hand, Wolves either hunt as a pack, or alone. The only members of the pack who do not play a part are the pups and pregnat females and that's only until the pups are born and reach a certain age.

 

That was the difference A D-B was highlighting.

[ShadowMaster]

Normally I take issue with stuff like this, but honestly I rode the rule of cool train all the way to the station on this one. Straight up Kali Ma'd that fool. 

 

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l331t5H6TK1qbzahao1_500.jpg

LOL FUnniest :cuss ever, thank you.

 

But yes this particular scene with Tagore and the custodian is a massive mistake imo.

[lilMAC25]

To be fair, I got nothing for how even a stronger than normal Marine can rip up power armor with his bare hands.

Malcador: "You're making them able to do WHAT? Why even give them chainswords then?"

Emperor: +Mal. Bro. Chainsaws that are swords.+

lol. No really, I have tears.

[RapatoR]

Having read "The Long Games at Carcharias" and "We Are One", I am afraid I must greet the notion of the Alpha Legion as the 41st millenia Chaos punching bags with hysterical giggling.

 

Well the second one is about sacrificing large portion of forces just to impersonate one inqusitor. The first one is accomplished just with one marine, except he has resources of 40k's antichrist at his disposal. Also Karron and Bale. You (WB) had Eliphas :).

 

Concerning original topic, it is explicitly mentioned that it was full power armour? Maybe the author expected everyone will figure out that it wasn't real PA, when he wrote that line about punching through. But I am not really sure why we are going through this, we have seen some pretty ridiculous things in both 40k lore in general and HH series.

 

Heck, lately I have gotten an impression that only the loyalist primarchs are allowed to do cool stuff and when the traitor ones do the same they are considered OTT.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/48790906.jpg

[Kol Saresk]

Power armor is power armor. Usually a substitute is written and described as such since the phrase "power armor" invokes a very specific image.

 

For the rest of the novel, the Outcasts wear normal armor. Every description of them makes clear to call it "armor".

[b1soul]

Garro is clearly a superb fighter, in rules terms he would be a praetor and since he was able to fight a totally psychotic berserk Loken and come out alive I think he sets a high standard. He recognised in his duel with Korrarin that despite his own best blade work the Custodian was toying with him and still driving him back relentlessly. It was only becuase Garro was smart enough to recognise that Korrarin was overconfident and had contempt for Garro that he was able to disarm him.

 

Who is this Korrarin fellow? More info about him please

 

Also it sounds like Garro did to this bloke what Loken did to Lucius

 

Moral is...if you play around with your opponent, you might be in for a nasty surprise

[b1soul]

Having read "The Long Games at Carcharias" and "We Are One", I am afraid I must greet the notion of the Alpha Legion as the 41st millenia Chaos punching bags with hysterical giggling.

 

I couldn't agree more...it's starting to get annoying

[Aegnor]

 

 

 

 

Garro is clearly a superb fighter, in rules terms he would be a praetor and since he was able to fight a totally psychotic berserk Loken and come out alive I think he sets a high standard. He recognised in his duel with Korrarin that despite his own best blade work the Custodian was toying with him and still driving him back relentlessly. It was only becuase Garro was smart enough to recognise that Korrarin was overconfident and had contempt for Garro that he was able to disarm him.

Who is this Korrarin fellow? More info about him please

 

Also it sounds like Garro did to this bloke what Loken did to Lucius

 

Moral is...if you play around with your opponent, you might be in for a nasty surprise

Korrarin is a Custodian (and a bit of a jerk) in the audio drama Sword of Truth.

 

From memory he wasn't toying with Garro, instead he was just convinced of his own superiority to him (mostly with justification in pure duelist terms) and thus was over-confident, and thus got suckered in when Garro pretended to make an error. So not so much playing with him as not being cautious enough against him.

[b1soul]

From memory he wasn't toying with Garro, instead he was just convinced of his own superiority to him (mostly with justification in pure duelist terms) and thus was over-confident, and thus got suckered in when Garro pretended to make an error. So not so much playing with him as not being cautious enough against him.

 

I guess I have a reason to get Sword of Truth now...I hope it'll be a decent listen

[Aegnor]

I liked it. The accents of the White Scars are borderline-old-Hollywood-movie-generic-Asian-villian ("Ah, Doctor Jones, so solly but you drink poison!") but it's not a bad story.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

I liked it. The accents of the White Scars are borderline-old-Hollywood-movie-generic-Asian-villian ("Ah, Doctor Jones, so solly but you drink poison!") but it's not a bad story.

I still love that Macer Varren is just Gerard Butler in power armour.

[Aegnor]

THIS! IS! ISSTVAN!!! :kick

[Kais Klip]

Came across something interesting while browsing daily stuff:

 

"When Rocky Marciano was destroying all challengers the U.S. Testing Co. was asked to measure the power of his wallop. Its findings: "Marciano's knockout blow packs more explosive energy than an armour-piercing bullet and represents as much energy as would be required to spot lift 1000 pounds one foot off the ground!" That, my friend, is what force training is all about!"

 

So turns out an Astartes punching through armour plate is a probable occurrence, considering a bolter round (which has a fair chance of penetrating) would be going much slower and most likely have less impact energy than a modern day armour-piercing bullet. Nicely kills the weaker-Custodes-armour assumption which I am not a fan of. 

[Aegnor]

Difference between a bullet and a fist is the size of the impact area. A bullet or even a bolt from a bolter might puncture armour because all the force is concentrated on one spot. A fist, or in this case a hand opened to KALI MAL a guy, is going to disperse that force across a wider impact area. The force imparted might be greater, but it's more evenly spread.

 

Also, what's the basis for saying bolter rounds travel slower than modern day bullets?

[Kais Klip]

Absolutely no hard back up, just an assumption since they are so heavy and share the chainsword's lack of penetration ability; both of the weapons are designed against light armour monstrosities, with a significant portion of the damage coming from the shell detonation in case of the bolter. We do know that there are both sub-sonic an sonic varieties of bolter ammunition though (galaxy at war), and perhaps the bolter shell is dense enough to offset the loss of speed and deliver the same momentum.