Loyalist Fallen ideas?

[steve!]

 

 

I have been trying to come up with a fluffy idea/reason to field a fallen army along with Cypher.

 

Now I know the fluff for this sort of stuff is a little shaky and a lot is still unknown. Please go easy on me here as I am still a little new to this area of the fluff.

My general idea was that the Dark Angels left on Caliban who fought back against Luther (the ones who painted their armour green as it says in the Cypher dataslate) could have been sucked into the warp together with the Luther loyalists and could have recently reappeared. 

 

To the DA however they are just seen as traitors and cant exactly wander back to The Rock and resume duties. 

They therefore flock to Cypher (who's dataslate hints at him being loyalist) and they dedicate themselves to the protection of the Lions sword.

I was thinking of doing them in Standard DA colours but replacing the DA shoulder markings with that of just a sword (making convenient use of the pads on the upgrae sprue)

 

I would most likely field these guys using the standard SM codex but I thought asking in the DA section would allow me to hear opinions from folk more knowledgeable on the subject than I.


I would love to hear opinions or other fluffy ideas people have had for this sort of thing!

 

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

From the bits that I picked up Cypher def has his own agenda and helps and recruits whomever he deems necessary. When he wants someone who is uber powerful (i.e. Abaddon) he blackmails or offers up something they want. From a loyalist chapter I would say he probably uses some kind of oratory or proof that convinces the loyalists he his on the side of good. Using SM kind of makes sense but so does using the CSM codex units to me. Others of course may and will differ in opinion but I think using SM for a group that "follows" Cypher would make sense. I doubt they would be the "fallen" per se however it could be like you described. Someone in the forum knows exactly how many of the Fallen are rumored to be out there (saw the number once and it seemed incredibly low to me) however if you go by the fluff that they got sucked into the warp and spat back out I doubt you would have enough together to make a company or chapter worth of marines unless they were CSM. Even then they probably would be so many together the entire First Legion (yes we still are Legion the Inquistion can stuff it in there fluffy white shorts) would assemble and probably call in every favor/blackmail they had to get them all killed or wrapped up.

 

So not a bad idea, from my standpoint I doubt they all would be Fallen. Maybe the leader is a Fallen Marine and since he's from the Heresy era back when the Space Marines were "real men" not this watered down stuff we have now. So you make the Chapter Master a Fallen and the rest all drawn to his power or ideals etc. Then Cypher comes along and talks him into whatever. Or just a regular Chapter convinced to guard the lions sword like you stated is pretty neat in my opinion.

 

DoC

[Grand Master Belial]

My Fallen date back a few editions so mine took a cue from the 13th Company and have mixed bits of Chaos and Loyalist to show that some Angels fell more/less than others. This allowed me to use the SM Codex, DA Codex and Chaos Codex. The determining factor was the leader of the group.

 

One bit of fluff I stuck with is Cypher's benefactor that whisks him away but leaves the group of Angels that are left in his wake. He could have crystallized the faction behind him but without his presence, there would be a power struggle and it would determine if the group was loyal or turned renegade. As such, I built a 750 pt force with only bikes for vehicles and allowed jump packs. I put a one squad limit on Scouts and Terminators since the armor would be hard to come by and was most likely stolen or recovered from a battlefield somewhere. I also allowed one dreadnought, mainly because of the short story that was in the BL book Deathwing.

 

But in recent editions, there are renegades and the black shields of the Death Watch that could easily be included into a Fallen force both for good or ill. So you can have a core Fallen Angel group and then a force of outcasts/renegades seeking redemption/glory. Also you can make that the small detachment to another force you have.

 

Either way, what you have is not unreasonable within the realms of the 40K fluff.

[HsojVvad]

Thats a good idea Steve! I like it. Not over the top, but "plausible". 

 

Thing people have to remember, when ever we get DA history, it's really on liners with no explanation. I am sure not all the DA on Calabin followed Luther. It's like, didn't you see Luthor with those mutations (if he had them) or question their training since it would be different now. 

 

I still don't believe DA would kill all their fellow brothers just because they were on Calabin on not in the ships. See we all interpit a lot of things differently, so there really is no right or wrong answer. :)

 

Guess I am heading to room 42, aren't I? Thanks a lot Steve! :P

[[TA]Typher]

After reading fallen angels again, I think you'd be hard pressed to count any of the marines in command on Caliban as loyalist.

 

I would however think there would still be some vets stationed there that were basically trapped there with Luther. Unable to leave and attacked bu the Lion when he returned it's plausable to think that some would still be loyal, despite Luther's declaration that Caliban was free of the yoke of the Imperium.

 

I don't see how they would be loyal to the Emperor and not to the Lion however, unless they had a ofd disconnect with reality and blamed him for luther. Basically they would be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Attacked as traitors because there command unit was corrupt.

 

I find it unplausable that any of the recruits there would be loyal, as unlike the veterans stationed on Caliban, all they know is what Luther has told them.

 

Cypher himself is obviously not a loyalist in the book. He openly joins Luther in his fray against the Lion. Perhaps, later he repents and is on a quest to redeem himself? I dunno. It's clear that he's not completely a chaos marine, but then again it's not clear he's now completely loyal either.

[Azoriel]

Two ideas for you...

The first is that they are a ragtag band of renegade space marines (from a mixture of different backgrounds) who have been convinced to fight for the Emperor once more through the amazing oratory of Cypher and another Fallen Dark Angel (the latter of whom would be your primary HQ).  While it would be seen as unfluffy to have an entire army of Fallen, perhaps you could get away with having two or three of the marines intermingled with the rest who would also be Fallen who were converted to Cypher's cause.  However, such an army would probably use the CSM codex rather than the SM one.

The second is that they are the surviving elements of the DA force that was trapped in the Warp during the Forgotten Wars and presumably slain to a man, but was in fact saved from complete annihilation by Cypher's direct intervention.  Said marines would still be loyalist fighting for the Imperium but likely be less absolute in their hatred of Chaos marines, explaining why none of them would have the Inner Circle rule.  They also wouldn't have access to DA supplies (and would probably even be considered traitors to be silenced by their former fellows), explaining why they don't use DA exclusive gear either.  They'd effectively be a DA version of the Knights of Blood or the Soul Drinkers.  (I'm thinking this option is your best bet.)

[steve!]

Thanks for all the input guys, its given me a lot to think about!
 

After reading fallen angels again, I think you'd be hard pressed to count any of the marines in command on Caliban as loyalist.

I would however think there would still be some vets stationed there that were basically trapped there with Luther. Unable to leave and attacked bu the Lion when he returned it's plausable to think that some would still be loyal, despite Luther's declaration that Caliban was free of the yoke of the Imperium.

I don't see how they would be loyal to the Emperor and not to the Lion however, unless they had a ofd disconnect with reality and blamed him for luther. Basically they would be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Attacked as traitors because there command unit was corrupt.

I find it unplausable that any of the recruits there would be loyal, as unlike the veterans stationed on Caliban, all they know is what Luther has told them.

Cypher himself is obviously not a loyalist in the book. He openly joins Luther in his fray against the Lion. Perhaps, later he repents and is on a quest to redeem himself? I dunno. It's clear that he's not completely a chaos marine, but then again it's not clear he's now completely loyal either.

As for the loyalties I am going off the Cypher Dataslate released last year. It states that the Marines still loyal to the Lion on Caliban repainted their armour green and this obviously hints to why Cyphers armour is green. It seems with a lot of this stuff it can be contradictory and it really depends how you look at it.
 

 

The second is that they are the surviving elements of the DA force that was trapped in the Warp during the Forgotten Wars and presumably slain to a man, but was in fact saved from complete annihilation by Cypher's direct intervention.  Said marines would still be loyalist fighting for the Imperium but likely be less absolute in their hatred of Chaos marines, explaining why none of them would have the Inner Circle rule.  They also wouldn't have access to DA supplies (and would probably even be considered traitors to be silenced by their former fellows), explaining why they don't use DA exclusive gear either.  They'd effectively be a DA version of the Knights of Blood or the Soul Drinkers.  (I'm thinking this option is your best bet.)

 

I quite like this idea, its something I will be taking into consideration. My basic troops are going to be a mix of DA vet and Tactical sprues.

[steve!]

Speaking of which, here is the Cypher I have just finished assembling, first model for the army.

http://i57.tinypic.com/mmadn7.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/rbbi3q.jpg

[HsojVvad]

Details, details. How did you do that? He is beautiful. 

 

Speaking of which, here is the Cypher I have just finished assembling, first model for the army.

http://i57.tinypic.com/mmadn7.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/rbbi3q.jpg

 

Must see him painted as well. 

[steve!]

Details, details. How did you do that? He is beautiful. 

 

Very simple really. 

 

-Dark Angel Veteran body.

-Dark Angel Terminator head.

-Forgeworld MKIII shoulder pads.

-Space Marine Vanguard arms.

-Space Marine Vanguard plasma pistol.

-Space Marine Tactical bolt pistol.

-Space Marine Tactical left holster (gun cut out of it).

-Dark Angel Raven wing right holster (gun and ravenwing iconography removed)

-Dark Angel Raven wing left and right grenade/pouches.

-Black Templar upgrade sprue sword.

-Cypher backpack.

 

 

 

[steve!]

Two ideas for you...

 

The first is that they are a ragtag band of renegade space marines (from a mixture of different backgrounds) who have been convinced to fight for the Emperor once more through the amazing oratory of Cypher and another Fallen Dark Angel (the latter of whom would be your primary HQ).  While it would be seen as unfluffy to have an entire army of Fallen, perhaps you could get away with having two or three of the marines intermingled with the rest who would also be Fallen who were converted to Cypher's cause.  However, such an army would probably use the CSM codex rather than the SM one.

 

The second is that they are the surviving elements of the DA force that was trapped in the Warp during the Forgotten Wars and presumably slain to a man, but was in fact saved from complete annihilation by Cypher's direct intervention.  Said marines would still be loyalist fighting for the Imperium but likely be less absolute in their hatred of Chaos marines, explaining why none of them would have the Inner Circle rule.  They also wouldn't have access to DA supplies (and would probably even be considered traitors to be silenced by their former fellows), explaining why they don't use DA exclusive gear either.  They'd effectively be a DA version of the Knights of Blood or the Soul Drinkers.  (I'm thinking this option is your best bet.)

 

I have been thinking a little more about this and I like the idea of just having Cypher and perhaps the captain be Fallen. The question is where would they get ahold of a small force of space marines or even the means to create and arm them?

 

The DA force lost in the Forgotten Wars intrigues me also but I cant figure out a reason why post heresy DA would ever become loyal to Cypher even if they where saved by him? Also why is it they would hate Chaos less?

 

 

[Azoriel]

Idea 1:  The space marines would be a band of renegades primarily from one chapter but willing to take in others, similar to how the Red Corsairs are set up.  The marines wouldn't have been renegades for very long, and the words and example of the Fallen captain would remind them of everything they left behind, their duty and sense of purpose (like what happened with the Soul Drinkers after they fell to Chaos).  I would imagine the Captain being a relatively new recruit, who took over and was able to convince everyone to take things in a new direction (a la Turin from The Children of Hurin).

 

Idea 2:  It's not so much that they would stop hating chaos (they still very much would), but rather would no longer view things with the same extreme black-and-white views held by the modern day Dark Angels.  More specifically, Cypher, in fighting the Fallen alongside them, will have convinced them that he is not all bad and that they're misguided in their unreasoning hatred.  Since they'd lack the same blind fury of conventional Inner Circle members (and might even doubt their own convictions), they wouldn't benefit from the favored enemy rule when fighting Chaos marines - they would only fight Chaos marines as well as any non-Unforgiven chapter.  (Alternatively, perhaps all members of the Inner Circle were slain, with the current leaders of your army being mere Sergeants of exceptional quality and experience, and Cypher was able to sway the unindoctrinated survivors.)

[Bryan Blaire]

Cypher has stolen Dark Angels gene seed at least once. It's not implausible he's actually made some of his own Marines through the use of a rogue Apothecary, etc. as far as arms and armor, there seems to be enough stuff littering the battlefields of 40K to pick up, but there are also hidden stashes to exploit, raids on small garrisons, etc. For all we know, he could have conned a forge world to get equipment. Cypher is very resourceful.

[steve!]

Idea 2:  It's not so much that they would stop hating chaos (they still very much would), but rather would no longer view things with the same extreme black-and-white views held by the modern day Dark Angels.  More specifically, Cypher, in fighting the Fallen alongside them, will have convinced them that he is not all bad and that they're misguided in their unreasoning hatred.  Since they'd lack the same blind fury of conventional Inner Circle members (and might even doubt their own convictions), they wouldn't benefit from the favored enemy rule when fighting Chaos marines - they would only fight Chaos marines as well as any non-Unforgiven chapter.  (Alternatively, perhaps all members of the Inner Circle were slain, with the current leaders of your army being mere Sergeants of exceptional quality and experience, and Cypher was able to sway the unindoctrinated survivors.)

 

After a little research on the Forgotten Wars I think this idea could work. My thinking was Cypher could have saved the remnants of the Lions Sable. The remaining Lions having been wrote out of history wouldn't exactly be welcome back at the Rock and this shunning would perhaps lead them to be more open to seeing things from Cyphers point of view. They Like you say no longer see things as black and white and whilst loyal to Cypher and his cause would also be loyal to the emperor. There is so little information about the Lions Sable I can mould them however I like.

 

 

 

Cypher has stolen Dark Angels gene seed at least once. It's not implausible he's actually made some of his own Marines through the use of a rogue Apothecary, etc. as far as arms and armor, there seems to be enough stuff littering the battlefields of 40K to pick up, but there are also hidden stashes to exploit, raids on small garrisons, etc. For all we know, he could have conned a forge world to get equipment. Cypher is very resourceful.

 

 

I also like this idea and could mix it with the above. I think perhaps Cypher could have saved a few Lions Sable during the forgotten wars and with their help gotten a hold of the things needed to create a few more marines. I would have the surviving Lions Sable be the elites and HQ's of the force and have the freshly made marines be the bulk.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

There are no loyalist fallen. All have fallen from grace and thus must be redeemed and then delivered to the Emperor's Mercy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.....on another note, some good ideas in this thread. However, the question is: who is Cypher loyal too? Himself? Luther? Lion? The Emperor? The Imperium? Chaos? Other Fallen?

 

What is his motive? Death of the Emperor? Redemption? Freeing Luther? Resurrecting Jonson? Destroying the Imperium and/or the Dark Angels?

 

And his ambiguity is what makes him such a compelling character.

[steve!]

There are no loyalist fallen. All have fallen from grace and thus must be redeemed and then delivered to the Emperor's Mercy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.....on another note, some good ideas in this thread. However, the question is: who is Cypher loyal too? Himself? Luther? Lion? The Emperor? The Imperium? Chaos? Other Fallen?

 

What is his motive? Death of the Emperor? Redemption? Freeing Luther? Resurrecting Jonson? Destroying the Imperium and/or the Dark Angels?

 

And his ambiguity is what makes him such a compelling character.

 

Thats what I like about him, its up to you how to interpret his actions and loyalty. 

[The Shadow Guard]

After reading an "Unremembered Empire" I actually wonder if Cypher is in fact an "eternal" armed with an "Athame" ... it will explain a lot?

 

An enterprising chap called Steve Byles, long time ago wrote the "Script of the Fallen" a codex of sorts for the Fallen but circa third edition. It contains loyalist fallen, traitor fallen and mercenary fallen. Have alook...might give you some ideas.

 

SG