In your mind how does the inter/intrasquad conflict play out

[Caleth]

As is so often referenced in the Codex most of our minis are out for themselves jerks.  Repeatedly stated in the Chosen fluff is how they will happily sell a comrade if it will keep them alive even a heartbeat longer.

In you head how does this play out, I mean on the tabletop we have a LD that's just as high as other armies.  What represents the wanton disregard of our minis towards each other.  I ask this as I just got done reading the NL trilogy and Blood Gorgons.  NL's in the trilogy seem to kind of have things together if only because of Talos.  In Blood Gorgons you really get the feel that all these guys are close to just blasting holes in each other.

Sorry if it got a little rambly I just wonder how others envision all this.

[Kilofix]

I'd fully expect CSM to go after each other when not otherwise preoccupied. Lots of examples in fluff of such.

 

However when on the battlefield with Loyalists - I think its all about the Long War than going after each other.

[Kol Saresk]

As is so often referenced in the Codex most of our minis are out for themselves jerks. Repeatedly stated in the Chosen fluff is how they will happily sell a comrade if it will keep them alive even a heartbeat longer.

In you head how does this play out, I mean on the tabletop we have a LD that's just as high as other armies. What represents the wanton disregard of our minis towards each other. I ask this as I just got done reading the NL trilogy and Blood Gorgons. NL's in the trilogy seem to kind of have things together if only because of Talos. In Blood Gorgons you really get the feel that all these guys are close to just blasting holes in each other.

Sorry if it got a little rambly I just wonder how others envision all this.

And that's when people are cooperating.

For quite a bit of it, its pretty similar to that. Have you ever been at a workplace where you don't really like the people you're stuck alongside and while maybe(emphasis) you may not throw them under the bus, you certainly wouldn't put your neck out for them? That's how I say living in a CSM squad. These guys are competing against each other, they don't exactly like each other and except for a few circumstances, they certainly aren't going to run back, pick you up off the ground and carry you back to the dropship to see the chirurgeon. If anything, they'll run back, grab your shiny bolter and then leave you behind screaming and cursing. There really isn't any love lost.

[Wayniac]

I've always assumed its like a mercenary group, with more sleeping with one eye open (when one sleeps that is).  Your "brothers" are there for your benefit, but you can't just up and slit his throat in the middle of the night, you need to work together for a mutual goal.  So you do that, and you work together, but you don't trust each other more than you have to; you'll know that Brother Menasor and Brother Bruticus are going to watch your back in a firefight because they have to, but when not fighting you're probably not going to be that social with them.

[Surreal Cruelty]

I haven't read Blood Gorgons, but I did read all the the NL books.  I also recommend reading Storm of Iron and the Word Bearers Omnibus to further the background you can get out of this.

 

It does tend to be still "brothers" in the Long War when facing loyalists, but you have war bands instead of legions for a reason.  They have had to compete constantly for limited resources, and even those war bands that seem to have better resources than others are still at each others throats given half a chance.  The Night Lords only have it together as much as they do because many of their war bands try to avoid trying themselves to the Ruinous Powers.

 

Storm of Iron, and the Word Bearers trilogy, you see a lot more internal conflict.  In the case of the Word Bearers, this gets to the point of throwing one of the Prophecies of Lorgar in to doubt, and ultimately losing that campaign because of an apparently typical squabble for power between Erebus and Kor Phaeron, played out through their lessers.  The Iron Warriors, while they never get in to direct conflict with each other, there is a lot of subtle sabotage and one-up-man-ship over who is going to inherit the warband, because the Warlord is at the cusp of ascension or spawn-hood.  In both books, it isn't always as straight forward as trying to outright kill each other, but that DOES happen.  Especially when power (both temporal and metaphysical) is involved.

 

Among the more strongly chaos-aligned war bands this is your main issue;  anyone can be favored by the gods, but not everyone is going to be favored by the gods.  While those favors are often rather fickle, left-handed gifts; the favored get access to better war-gear, better pickings from the battle field, and more importantly, higher status and the power to act with relative impunity.  Champions rise and fall very quickly, but you only get one shot.  Think of the ranks of a typical war band being more like playing king of the hill...but only if the hill is built upon the bodies of the fallen.   A lot of that "favor," whether from the gods or the war lord, comes down to playing "who's a better killer."  That game leads to a fairly predictable ending.

 

Does it happen all the time?  No, even among 9ft tall superhuman killing machines, the best odds of survival is in numbers.  Yet, I will end with this:

 

"The strong are strongest alone." - Huron Blackheart

 

That's about my two cents worth.

[Kol Saresk]

For those who want to know about the Blood Gorgons...

 

 

In the Blood Gorgons, there is a tradition that two warriors are "bonded". This is achieved by trading organs between the two and then using sorcerous rituals. This is done because ot allows for both individuals to become closer together and better operate as a unit. These pairs are then grouped with other pairs. Typically a squad is five pairs strong. It was believed that this pairing therefore made betrayal from within the ranks less likely while also helping train new recruits faster and increase perfomance in combat.

 

An unintended result was that the witch-chirurgeons who performed said ritual were looked down upon because they did not take part in it.

 

Later on in the novel, this becomes "pivotal" as we see one person using it to find his bond-brother and another character face betrayal from his bond-brother, which up until then was inconceivable. So if anything, the Blood Gorgons are supposed to be tightly knit, but in reality still face the trials and tribulations of betrayal from within.

 

[UndeadTaxman]

In Siege of Castellax at least, featuring the Iron Warriors, the various marines have a real one up man ship social thing going on, plotting against one another and scheming to maneuver themselves into positions of power almost constantly (Imagine the office politics of hell times 3). However when given the opportunity to abandon another squad to the orks, Captain Rhodaan justifies his choice to help being that if he were to abandon them, his men would lose respect for him as their leader and they would eventually seek to murder and replace him. C.L Werner also mentions a little about how Rhodaan feels that by leaving his brothers he would be unable to call himself a Iron Warrior i.e. martial honour etc. etc. 

[UndeadTaxman]

In Siege of Castellax at least, featuring the Iron Warriors, the various marines have a real one up man ship social thing going on, plotting against one another and scheming to maneuver themselves into positions of power almost constantly (Imagine the office politics of hell times 3). However when given the opportunity to abandon another squad to the orks, Captain Rhodaan justifies his choice to help being that if he were to abandon them, his men would lose respect for him as their leader, eventually leading to them seeking to replace him. C.L Werner also mentions a little about how Rhodaan feels that by leaving his brothers he would be unable to call himself a Iron Warrior etc etc. 

[Hellios]

I play 1KSons: the sorcerer commands, the rubrics obey.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Towards the beginning of Blood Reaver, there's a part where another Claw is coming after First Claw because they want Uzas for killing one of their own.  Despite the members of First Claw absolutely despising each other (for the most part, anyway) and most of them being more than willing to kill Uzas for his insanity, they unite against this outside force and instead fight the other Claw.  So while they bicker and fight amongst themselves, they will unite against external threats to ensure their own survival and maintain the fear and respect of their other compatriots.

 

This, to me, is the quintessential answer to your question. 

[Plague Angel]

Uniting against external threats, yes. But not every squad is going to be as disciplined as First Claw, so even that only works to a point.

 

There's a story about two friends walking in the jungle, who realize they're being stalked by a tiger. "That's it for us," says Bob. Jim says nothing, but stoops down and laces his running shoes. "What are you doing?" Bob laughs. "There's no way we can outrun a tiger."

 

"I don't have to outrun the tiger," Jim says. "I only have to outrun you."

 

Chaos Astartes aren't the sorts of people to back down from fights, but their veteran status in the Long War also helps them recognize that some fights are already lost. If falling back and leaving your brother to the Howling Banshee or whatever lets you live and claim more skulls for the Dark Gods another day, most Chaos Astartes will make that decision. After all, they've all already forsaken an even more sacred oath to their Father; betraying brothers comes much easier after that.

[A D-B]

"I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers." -- Bedouin proverb.

[RapatoR]

Well, I for one don't think that evil should automatically mean backstabbing, treacherous and without any sense of brotherhood. Look at Tyler's army or Nazi command during WW2.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Or Darth Vader, the poster child for Lawful Evil.

[hummus]

"I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers." -- Bedouin proverb.

He was a raptor, first and foremost, and a bleeding eye second. Thirdly, distantly, he was a Night Lord

[Trevak Dal]

Okay, I have a semi-related real life experience to this-and maybe some of you do too.

I work 3rd shift Night stock at a grocery store chain.  We're all "Brothers/Sisters" in The Company (not gonna say, they may "Some how" find out and are always looking to fire people), but we're always the first to be blamed for anything wrong.

 

Very, very rarely, we'll get all the stuff done we're supposed to do-and I have my guys kick back.  I happens, maybe twice a month.

 

Oh, to have one of the day time people find out, it's all "how we get all the hours, how we get a set schedule, how we can just sit around and do nothing and We get paid SO MUCH MORE"

 

They don't say this stuff where I can hear it-it's always second or third party hearsay.

 

My Job is Not difficult.  But it can be made annoying by people not doing their job, or not doing the right thing.  I get paid whether I get done or not-I put in my 8 and leave, though I like 'winning'.

 

So basically, I believe Inter-Workplace politics and rivalries are what it's like in a Chaos Space Marine warband.  Except the Chaos Space Marines sometimes just kill the people who annoy them instead of just thinking about it.

 

I've actually compared "The Company" to Chaos Space Marines.  Working there is like being a Chaos Space Marine, You either die (quit...or die), become a spawn (Work 10+ years, retire...and come back and do the same job again part time), or truly sell your soul to the Dark Gods and become a slave Daemon Prince (go into management)

 

I saw a lot of similarities between my own team and First Claw.  We all dislike each other-but less-so than the day walkers.

[incinerator950]

Uniting against external threats, yes. But not every squad is going to be as disciplined as First Claw, so even that only works to a point.

 

There's a story about two friends walking in the jungle, who realize they're being stalked by a tiger. "That's it for us," says Bob. Jim says nothing, but stoops down and laces his running shoes. "What are you doing?" Bob laughs. "There's no way we can outrun a tiger."

 

"I don't have to outrun the tiger," Jim says. "I only have to outrun you."

 

Chaos Astartes aren't the sorts of people to back down from fights, but their veteran status in the Long War also helps them recognize that some fights are already lost. If falling back and leaving your brother to the Howling Banshee or whatever lets you live and claim more skulls for the Dark Gods another day, most Chaos Astartes will make that decision. After all, they've all already forsaken an even more sacred oath to their Father; betraying brothers comes much easier after that.

 

Not entirely true.  A lot of them broke that vow for the fealty to Horus, or the abandonment from the Emperor to a distant crusade while their hard work was thrown to a bureaucracy.  For warbands, the Blood Gorgons insist on protecting their charges much like a loyalist chapter would. 

 

Basically its fair to assume you're going to have many portions of many situations, fealty to Legion, swear the most powerful, every man for themselves, I'm a Sorcerer surrounded by Rubrics. 

 

Thankfully it's up to the players rather than ambiguity to be thrown around.

[Montuhotep]

It also depends, in many cases, on how much "discipline" (for want of a better word) is enforced by the boss. If the underlings know that there are harsh penalties in store for dissent, no matter how successful that dissent may be, it behoves people to toe the line; examples may occasionally have to be made for the sake of efficiency, Pour encourager les autres.

[Plague Angel]

To a large degree, then, (possibly even greater than with loyalist chapters) everyone's free to imagine their own war and behaving as you see fit. Even mono-legion warbands will behave differently from other warbands of the same legion. There's a lot of freedom here.

[Rain]

The Dark Eldar codex actually addresses this question for Dark Eldar, and I think the same logic applies to CSM. Essentially each DE warrior is consonantly scheming to gain prestige and ascend in rank and would think nothing of murdering a superior or a peer to do so, however they understand the pragmatism in operating as a cohesive force in combat as a raiding force operating as a cohesive whole leads to a greater chance of victory and survival for each individual member as well.

 

So in effect, they cooperate because cooperation is also in each individual Kabalite's self interest, at least so long as there is an enemy that wants to kill your entire warband. I'm guessing the exact same logic applies here, leave the backstabbing at home, and work as a military unit when it's in everyone's interest to do so, but once you're back on the Strike Cruiser, all bets are off. Though even then, logically CSM shouldn't be too fractious as while there may be millions of DE in a given Kabal (so lots of replacements) even the largest CSM warband would be hard pressed to cross a thousand marines, and many operate with more like 50. So again, killing too many of your brothers would also reduce your own ability to pillage and would almost certainly incur the wrath of your Lord for wasting his resources.

[incinerator950]

Unless you're Abbadon, who can contribute wholesale slaughter of his own lieutenants to gain a small Khornate boon.

[Rain]

Well, yeah. But most of Abaddon's fluff is predicated around him being eeeeeeevil, not about him making sense as a character. Which is why I love DE fluff so much, they are presented both as totally irredeemable monsters and sadists, and yet as an intelligent and believable race and faction. They tend to not waste lives unless necessary, and even then they have cloning vats and regeneration pods to recoup losses. The 5th edition DE codex is probably my second favorite codex of all time after 3.5 Chaos, it is absolutely stunning in its depth of character, background, different builds (though less so in 6th) and just pure love poured into it.

[Hellios]

Well, yeah. But most of Abaddon's fluff is predicated around him being eeeeeeevil, not about him making sense as a character. Which is why I love DE fluff so much, they are presented both as totally irredeemable monsters and sadists, and yet as an intelligent and believable race and faction. They tend to not waste lives unless necessary, and even then they have cloning vats and regeneration pods to recoup losses. The 5th edition DE codex is probably my second favorite codex of all time after 3.5 Chaos, it is absolutely stunning in its depth of character, background, different builds (though less so in 6th) and just pure love poured into it.

 

Yes! The DE codex is by far my favorite codex out of all of the current codices.

[Scribe]

Agreed, DE codex is by FFFFFFFFFFARRRRRRRRRRRRR the best codex out there right now as a complete product.

[Hellios]

Whoah... Guys... Did you just see what happened? For the first time on the Chaos boards.... two Chaos players... have agreed with each other...  And there you go OP. Chaos is bound together by a respect of the Dark Eldar.