In your mind how does the inter/intrasquad conflict play out

[RapatoR]

Well this is what I am talking about. I really dislike when evil character acts like Jofrey, killing people just for lulz. He lives just because he has a lot of people backing him up. But in the Eye? That kind of character would get killed in an instant. I always imagined CSM acting more like Tywin.

[Visitor13]

"I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers."

 

Boring.

 

Unless of course this is just one of several possible intra/inter warband dynamics. But it seems to be pretty much the only one.

 

So yeah, boring.

[King Jackal]

Well this is what I am talking about. I really dislike when evil character acts like Jofrey, killing people just for lulz. He lives just because he has a lot of people backing him up. But in the Eye? That kind of character would get killed in an instant. I always imagined CSM acting more like Tywin.

 

There are Tywins and Jamies, there are Hounds and Spiders and Littlefingers and a lot of other morally ambiguous types in the eye. But there are most certainly Joffreys, Boltons, Freys and Mountains too.

 

 

"I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers."

 

Boring.

 

Unless of course this is just one of several possible intra/inter warband dynamics. But it seems to be pretty much the only one.

 

So yeah, boring.

I have honestly no idea what your point is....?

[incinerator950]

Whoah... Guys... Did you just see what happened? For the first time on the Chaos boards.... two Chaos players... have agreed with each other...  And there you go OP. Chaos is bound together by a respect of the Dark Eldar.

 

Lets burn them.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Your average Chaos Marine is the Mountain That Rides.  Only the truly special, like Abaddon, achieve Tywin-like levels of ability.

[RapatoR]

 

Well this is what I am talking about. I really dislike when evil character acts like Jofrey, killing people just for lulz. He lives just because he has a lot of people backing him up. But in the Eye? That kind of character would get killed in an instant. I always imagined CSM acting more like Tywin.

 

There are Tywins and Jamies, there are Hounds and Spiders and Littlefingers and a lot of other morally ambiguous types in the eye. But there are most certainly Joffreys, Boltons, Freys and Mountains too.

 

Well I agree with some of those names. I can sorta-kinda imagine Ramsay being able to survive there, because he might be capable fighter. But I just can't imagine Joffrey being able to survive as he has no skill that would help him to do so. Frey at least inherited strategically important point, but that rule is non-existent in the Eye.

 

The problem is that a lot of people easily confuse evil with sadistic. Littlefinger and Tywin are not merely morally ambiguous just because they not sadistic and unlikable, they are plain and simple evil. Baing machiavellian genius instead of sadistic jerk doesn't make you less evil. Same goes with Roose Bolton, he would be just fine in the Eye, the man is a genius.

[King Jackal]

 

 

Well this is what I am talking about. I really dislike when evil character acts like Jofrey, killing people just for lulz. He lives just because he has a lot of people backing him up. But in the Eye? That kind of character would get killed in an instant. I always imagined CSM acting more like Tywin.

 

There are Tywins and Jamies, there are Hounds and Spiders and Littlefingers and a lot of other morally ambiguous types in the eye. But there are most certainly Joffreys, Boltons, Freys and Mountains too.

 

Well I agree with some of those names. I can sorta-kinda imagine Ramsay being able to survive there, because he might be capable fighter. But I just can't imagine Joffrey being able to survive as he has no skill that would help him to do so. Frey at least inherited strategically important point, but that rule is non-existent in the Eye.

 

The problem is that a lot of people easily confuse evil with sadistic. Littlefinger and Tywin are not merely morally ambiguous just because they not sadistic and unlikable, they are plain and simple evil. Baing machiavellian genius instead of sadistic jerk doesn't make you less evil. Same goes with Roose Bolton, he would be just fine in the Eye, the man is a genius.

Interesting...

I compare Joffrey as a weak willed lieutenant of chaos who simply had dumb muscle behind him, arrived at the right time and had everybody around him on edge and eager to serve maybe because the he had a much scarier lord pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Frey as a vindictive and spiteful sorcerer.

Ramsay would be a Night Lord

The story is PoV, I don't see Tywin as being evil - but as an Overlord determined to keep as much power as possible through any means for the ultimate betterment of his kin, and yes a lot of these are 'evil means' but he had a lot of incompetence around him to make up for... Abbadon'ish' almost

 

As a side note: Huron Blackheart - Euron Greyjoy...?

[Tenebris]

Now lets consider a few things. An average chaos space marine squad would be made by a host of very different characters, some members could be the still living Horus Heresy era veterans, some could be renegade marines and some could be marines crafted by some manner of sorcery, technology or medicine available to the warband. Said that all this marines share a lot of things. To name a few:

 

- they need to fight in order to acquire their wargear, spare parts for the repairs and servants to allow them perform within parameters of combat efficiency,

- the wargear their wear, use or otherwise have access to is finite, with the best pieces going to those who perform well and please their superiors,

- they rely on a strong form of collaboration, team action and a host of tactical protocols to live through the hell that is a battlefield in M41,

- be it dedicated to a single chaos god, to none or to a pantheon, they still have to ingratiate themselves to the Dark Gods for you never know when the Warp will turn against you and then only a patron can save you...

 

So this puts a legionary into a survivalistic mindset. You have to rely on your squad to survive the rigors of combat, you have to rely on your squad mates to provide covering fire, support in melee or assistance upon the battlefield in order to complete your mission and you need a group to carry you through the internecine warfare in the Eye. So like it or not a chaos space marine is linked to his squad in so many ways that he has to postpone his selfish goals for the sake of survival. 

 

But there is the second aspect of Chaos, power. Now most chaos space marines are in it for power, glory, immortality, lust or simply due to their overriding emotions, and the Dark Gods reward those who are both smart and ruthless. Ambition is the key factor of most servants of Chaos for the benefit can be great if you pull the right strings. This inevitably leads to a constant clash in the politics in a warband, in a squad or in a faction as great as a legion. Conflict is the norm and you must not shy away from it, you must not dismiss opportunity even if it goes against all your senses of honor, duty, loyalty and in the last brotherhood. 

 

This conflict is very much based upon opportunity, it is a long term game of chess where you as a legionary play against your enemies, against the Dark Gods and against your allies. A smart player would thus buy his time, respond to challenges when is is the most optimal, use murder and blackmail to advance his goals and slowly but surely court the favor of the Dark Gods. 

 

In a certain term lets go with a simple example. Wargear. You are a fledgling chaos space marine, to get your suit of armor you had most probably killed either one of the aspirants or a full marine so it begins here, to advance into astartes ranks, without considering even ingratiating yourself to the warband to even sponsor your ascension into the aspirant ranks. Then from here you are put into your first outfit, a squad which had to be reinforced to full strength. Now you are as much prey as plaything for your squadmates, most of them already veterans, so here begins the long game. Would you lie, court or force your way to better wargear, would you "forget" to cover your squadmate in order to get his plasma gun or a powerful power sword later on, would you inflict injury during the course of a battle to your squad in order to punish them for past slights or you would betray some secrets privy to your squad in order to gain the favor of the Chosen...

 

In short it is all a game of opportunity, where sometime the opportunity can be engineered the true masters of the game, those who actually reach the mighty ranks of the Chosen or even Chaos Terminators ranks, are very very subtle beings, even in a World Eaters warband. You have to balance your need for advancement with a smart game of favors and threats, both of which you have to back up with facts and deeds and to spice all you actually have to survive this long game. 

 

As it has been said in many topics around the board different warbands have different ways to test an individual and ways to advance personal ambition but all in the end depends on the skill to remain unnoticed when you do something detrimental to your warband but advantageous to you, and be praised and lauded when you do something that appears mighty or even useful. 

 

As for the actual act of conflict... more often than not I presume that it all falls in the category ... "incidents happen" ... with the add challenge or duel to spice things up. That or a classic lie, betrayal and murder in sleep. 

[Visitor13]

 

Well this is what I am talking about. I really dislike when evil character acts like Jofrey, killing people just for lulz. He lives just because he has a lot of people backing him up. But in the Eye? That kind of character would get killed in an instant. I always imagined CSM acting more like Tywin.

 

There are Tywins and Jamies, there are Hounds and Spiders and Littlefingers and a lot of other morally ambiguous types in the eye. But there are most certainly Joffreys, Boltons, Freys and Mountains too.

 

> 

"I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers."

 

Boring.

 

Unless of course this is just one of several possible intra/inter warband dynamics. But it seems to be pretty much the only one.

 

So yeah, boring.

I have honestly no idea what your point is....?

 

 

The point is that this constant squabbling within and between warbands is boring. It makes almost every story that explores chaos space marines painfully predictable - there will be betrayal from a brother. Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Blood Gorgons, Night Lords - for all the different aesthetics, they're all essentially the same backstabbing rats. "Skaven in power armour," as Wade Garrett called C.L. Werner's Iron Warriors.

[RapatoR]

an Overlord determined to keep as much power as possible through any means for the ultimate betterment of his kin

... and this is definition of evil. Remember that he is power hungry too. But all parallels don't work so well. In Westeros, there are rules agreed upon, like inheritance, obeying the king. In Eye of Terror there are none. In environment with no rules, pure natural selection is at work, which should bring the strongest, most cunning and ruthless individuals/groups (remember that natural selection favors teamwork to a certain extent).

 

Remember that Joffrey did something that in 40k equivalent can be described as starting a war with strong enemy warband for dumbest reason imaginable. In such case even with backup from strong chaos lord wouldn't be enough. After such dumb move he even might withdraw his support or reach out and replace Joffrey with someone else or himself.

 

I would go so far as state that theoretically Imperium should the fraction with biggest fraction of incompetent commanders as there are rules and laws imposed for succession and promotion. Also the Imperium is the big bureaucratic empire, those conditions favor specific kind of people that are not always the most competent for the job. Hence the Roman saying: 'We wanted to get rid of him, so we promoted him.'

[A D-B]

 

"I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers."

 

Boring.

 

Unless of course this is just one of several possible intra/inter warband dynamics. But it seems to be pretty much the only one.

 

So yeah, boring.

 

Humanity. The way our species itself works.

 

And Chaos Marines since the start of the license. You might be taking a general proverb and applying it on a very, very narrow scale, but I think the wider context and breadth of possibility is pretty obvious.

 

Of course there are others, but that's a general and all-encompassing theme that sums up the human condition as well as the broad cultural mentalities upon which Chaos Marines are based.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

It varies from war bands, and as people said it could be like range from workplace/family politics to skaven in power armour, a form of it would certainly be in obtaining and training recruits, it's mentioned that mangusites and Ahrimaneans raid each other for promising recruits and pupils, and certainly with more sorcerous inclined war bands I could see two rival sorcerers competing to make the best offers/intimidate/impress that promising acoyalte among the war bands recruits, more so if they have a different god. 
I admit my imagining of my war bands court is heavily based on the patronage system of the ancient and elizabethan world, with my aspiring sorcerers competing for artefacts, prestige, supplies and favour of the Sorcerer lord, whilst in some war bands you may have squads only bound together by their addiction to the drug/substance the aspiring champion makes, or another where you have the bonds of brotherhood like loyalists.

[Scribe]

I think its obvious that CSM are humanity magnified, much as the Primarchs where before them.

 

Humans are selfish, and ADB put it right I > Other > Other Group > Other Species. To argue against that seems...a difficult position.

 

So you have to define the level of power that a CSM has, and that level of power, and their own self control and intelligence would then define how they relate to the world around them.

 

CSM are beings beyond morality, they have been put in a vessel that makes the majority of what we would deem as limiters on potential, obsolete. Add in Chaos, and they have no bounds to their potential, at that point, you better believe it would be I > *.

[Rain]

"I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers."

Boring.

Unless of course this is just one of several possible intra/inter warband dynamics. But it seems to be pretty much the only one.

So yeah, boring.

Humanity. The way our species itself works.

And Chaos Marines since the start of the license. You might be taking a general proverb and applying it on a very, very narrow scale, but I think the wider context and breadth of possibility is pretty obvious.

Of course there are others, but that's a general and all-encompassing theme that sums up the human condition as well as the broad cultural mentalities upon which Chaos Marines are based.

Just to play devil's advocate a bit here, Space Marines are pretty far from "normal" humans in both their upbringing (nurture) and the way their brains are chemically and technologically induced to function (nature). While humans are indeed used as a base, that base is very heavily modified, first in the creation of a Space Marine, and then in the conversion to Chaos. Also Space Marines are in general much more individually empowered than a human, and in the case of Chaos Marines it is explicitly stated in background that they wallow in the "godlike power" that they have over most other life forms.

It could reasonably be argued that the reason most humans feel such a connection to social in-groups is largely for a.) socialization for it's own sake, as humans are social animals that enjoy being around other humans b.) self esteem reinforcement (hence why we like to congregate with those of our political/religious etc views) and c.) a kind of safety and comfort in numbers, and the comfort of knowing that this group of people that are part of "us" will help you against the oh so horrible "them".

Chaos Marines are much more likely to be megalomaniacs in one form or another, and although they may see the pragmatic purpose of congregating into squads and warbands, they a.) are conditioned and trained to be focused on war and various martial tasks and so don't need much socialization b.) the whole concept of self esteem is probably alien to them, I doubt that most Chaos Marines care one way or the other for positive reinforcement of their views and lifestyle and they are hard wired (kind of literally) to believe totally in whatever it is that they set themselves to and c.) they see themselves as too powerful and important to need the support of others, and probably see their peers as a means to an end or potential underlings moreso than anything.

This is reflected in background in various marines leaving and disowning their prior Legion and Chapter affiliations and joining the Black Legion, because they feel like it matches their particular goals, predilections, or thirst for power. It's all about means to an end, not upholding some grander, more global concept of honor or heritage, it's about "how do I get the most power/chance to attack those I hate etc"

Just another take on it anyway. I'm not trying to be a and I certainly think that the more "honorable" CSM that try to uphold the legend of their Legion, and who hold a "sure he's a bastard, but he's our bastard" view of their brothers have a place, I just think that using normal humans to explain Chaos Marines is a bit of a flawed way to go about it.

[A D-B]

"I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers."

Boring.

Unless of course this is just one of several possible intra/inter warband dynamics. But it seems to be pretty much the only one.

So yeah, boring.

Humanity. The way our species itself works.

And Chaos Marines since the start of the license. You might be taking a general proverb and applying it on a very, very narrow scale, but I think the wider context and breadth of possibility is pretty obvious.

Of course there are others, but that's a general and all-encompassing theme that sums up the human condition as well as the broad cultural mentalities upon which Chaos Marines are based.

Just to play devil's advocate a bit here, Space Marines are pretty far from "normal" humans in both their upbringing (nurture) and the way their brains are chemically and technologically induced to function (nature). While humans are indeed used as a base, that base is very heavily modified, first in the creation of a Space Marine, and then in the conversion to Chaos. Also Space Marines are in general much more individually empowered than a human, and in the case of Chaos Marines it is explicitly stated in background that they wallow in the "godlike power" that they have over most other life forms.

It could reasonably be argued that the reason most humans feel such a connection to social in-groups is largely for a.) socialization for it's own sake, as humans are social animals that enjoy being around other humans b.) self esteem reinforcement (hence why we like to congregate with those of our political/religious etc views) and c.) a kind of safety and comfort in numbers, and the comfort of knowing that this group of people that are part of "us" will help you against the oh so horrible "them".

Chaos Marines are much more likely to be megalomaniacs in one form or another, and although they may see the pragmatic purpose of congregating into squads and warbands, they a.) are conditioned and trained to be focused on war and various martial tasks and so don't need much socialization b.) the whole concept of self esteem is probably alien to them, I doubt that most Chaos Marines care one way or the other for positive reinforcement of their views and lifestyle and they are hard wired (kind of literally) to believe totally in whatever it is that they set themselves to and c.) they see themselves as too powerful and important to need the support of others, and probably see their peers as a means to an end or potential underlings moreso than anything.

This is reflected in background in various marines leaving and disowning their prior Legion and Chapter affiliations and joining the Black Legion, because they feel like it matches their particular goals, predilections, or thirst for power. It's all about means to an end, not upholding some grander, more global concept of honor or heritage, it's about "how do I get the most power/chance to attack those I hate etc"

Just another take on it anyway. I'm not trying to be a and I certainly think that the more "honorable" CSM that try to uphold the legend of their Legion, and who hold a "sure he's a bastard, but he's our bastard" view of their brothers have a place, I just think that using normal humans to explain Chaos Marines is a bit of a flawed way to go about it.

Are you sure that's Devil's Advocate? It's awesome and all (and plastered across the lore), but I'm not sure it's disagreeing with anything. Especially as my post specifically said "Of course there are other possibilities..." because... of course there are. And that's a great few of them. None of which, incidentally, fall outside the remit of that proverb. That proverb is a general theme, not The Only Way Chaos Marines Interact.

I think I get your point; I'm just not sure it's as Devil's Advocatey as you intended. Besides, we're talking about a general proverb that literally does sum up the overall attitude of Chaos Marines in the license since forever as it relates to the opening question. I'm not saying every letter of every word in the entire sentence is the be-all and end-all of the topic, but sometimes it's nice not to type out a 6,000 word essay on stuff. Especially on Chaos Marines, for obvious reasons.

Snippiness aside, none of your post makes that proverb any less relevant. It's still the overriding theme of how "Chaos Marines" as a general faction have been portrayed in the lore as dealing with one another. It doesn't detail the whys and the hows and the wherefores, so it's unfair to judge it on that. It's just the overriding theme of their general loyalties. The same way Space Marines "know no fear" for example. A world of nuance, but a general theme.

[A D-B]

All three of those paragraphs say the same thing. WHICH TWO DO I DELETE?

 

4am posting. It's the way forward.

[Rain]

Sure. Advocatey or not, I was just laying out why I (and maybe some others) may think that while the proverb may describe some CSM factions quite well, it may not describe some others. I mean, all Space Marines "know no fear" in some sense, so while there may be differences in the stubbornness and willingness to die out of principle of say Imperial Fists vs the more pragmatic approach of Raptors (the Chapter) the "know no fear" trope covers all Chapters "pretty well" as Space Marines are incapable of feeling the emotion of fear. Whereas on the other hand, your proverb covers some CSM factions very well, while others pretty badly because of how different CSM can be from humans, instead of covering all "pretty well". I guess that's all I was trying to get across, I wasn't so much disagreeing as expanding, and giving a caveat.

[A D-B]

Sure. Advocatey or not, I was just laying out why I (and maybe some others) may think that while the proverb may describe some CSM factions quite well, it may not describe some others. I mean, all Space Marines "know no fear" in some sense, so while there may be differences in the stubbornness and willingness to die out of principle of say Imperial Fists vs the more pragmatic approach of Raptors (the Chapter) the "know no fear" trope covers all Chapters "pretty well" as Space Marines are incapable of feeling the emotion of fear. Whereas on the other hand, your proverb covers some CSM factions very well, while others pretty badly because of how different CSM can be from humans, instead of covering all "pretty well". I guess that's all I was trying to get across, I wasn't so much disagreeing as expanding, and giving a caveat.

 

It was comprehensive and great, dude. Don't mind me, I've not slept in almost 2 days and came across as bizarrely defensive.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

ADB:

Don't know what the sleep problem is but I've been through the same thing before. Put myself through a horrendous work out and about an hour after I passed right out, might help.

 

On topic:

I see them getting along (on the table top at least) they are all  vying for the power of whatever goal. Or they hate the other group so much its a good day to attack. Or the Chaos gods say go forth and I will give you a little tickle under the chin afterwards.

[incinerator950]

ADB:

Don't know what the sleep problem is but I've been through the same thing before. Put myself through a horrendous work out and about an hour after I passed right out, might help.

 

On topic:

I see them getting along (on the table top at least) they are all  vying for the power of whatever goal. Or they hate the other group so much its a good day to attack. Or the Chaos gods say go forth and I will give you a little tickle under the chin afterwards.

 

I was working freight for three days before I could sleep.  I'll need to remember this.

[Xin Ceithan]

Can't help but post this here again:

„Telemachon stands next to me, watching with arms crossed across his breastplate. His mind is sealed to me, and I am content to leave it thus. It has been nine years since I last tried to kill him. It has been seven since he last tried to kill me.“

Aaron Dembski-Bowden. „Abaddon: Chosen of Chaos.“ Black Library, 2013-12. iBooks.

 

I will probably get into this once I get to a more comfortable keyboard...

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Got to agree with Xin there. It makes sense they try and shwack eachother. Also makes sense that when someone else from "another squad" challenges they all gang up on that person. Advance your squads power/prowess advance yourself. When no one else is around then inter squad politics start.

 

Off topic: For those with sleeping issues. The work out thing helped me (I fly for the Air Force so I never have had a normal schedule) as well as making sure you stay awake for the time frame you are supposed to be "awake" for your shift. Also it sounds weird but drink a ton of water. Staying hydrated helped a ton no idea why. So yeah no naps and make sure you don't run a radio or TV when its time to sleep. Lets the brain stay on too much.