The Crimson Slaughter: A Retro Benchmark?

[Dammeron]

I must say, for all of the general lamentation; the wailing and gnashing of teeth, that Chaos players have been obliged to demonstrate in recent years, the last few months have provided some rather inspiring articles, not least of which has been the total curve ball of the Crimson Slaughter supplement.

 

Putting aside for the moment the general desire for legion-specific supplements (it's been done to death; we all want them; I have some degree of faith that they will happen eventually, but will generally require A LOT more in the way of conceptual deliberation than less divergent or idiosyncratic forces), the Crimson Slaughter supplement has left me with the startling impression that THIS is where the benchmark for Chaos Space Marines should have been from the off for 6th ed. For the first time in what seems forever (arguably since the original RoC books), we have a Chaos Space Marine force that looks and feels corrupt, mutated and distorted to such a degree by their experiences and exposure to the Warp that they are almost unrecognisable from their Adeptus Astartes origins. The aesthetic is something that gradually bled away from Chaos Space Marines during the transition to second ed (the "marines with skulls and spikes" aesthetic became established during that era), their arguable sterilisation continuing into third ed and all subsequent lines.

 

The Crimson Slaughter are not simply ancient. embittered marines in older marks of power armour; they are touched by the Warp and altered by it; their armour and weaponry shifting into new shapes and patterns, taking on organic qualities; sprouting flesh, protuberances; mouths, eyes, tongues; all manner of weirdness and absurdity. This is something that hasn't really been emphasised either in the background or the rules of Chaos forces for a very long time. It's also something that a certain contingent of Chaos Space Marine players (such as myself) have been hankering after since the RoC days, when the miniatures line was much less codified and standardised; when Chaos Space Marine miniatures were utterly absurd; examples of Marines cross-bred with Steeds of Slaanesh, with the heads and arms of flies, with the heads of Bloodletters; all manner of nonsense was possible. It seems as though some time has been taken over the Crimson Slaughter to genuinely consider their aesthetics; how they sit as the new poster boys for Chaos, which means that, for the first time in ages, some consideration has gone into distinguishing Chaos Space Marines beyond: just put some spikes on them and give their armour a trim. The artwork and descriptions throughout the book depict various stages of their corruption; we have examples of how they started out; clean, upright and uniform, then gradual degeneration into entities that resemble anthropomorphic monsters; beasts or daemons rather than marines. I know that this isn't necessarily an aesthetic that appeals to everyone; many like the cleaner, more uniform qualities evinced by the second ed miniature lines, and I certainly think there's space for that; considering that we're dealing with forces as divergent as the Alpha Legion (who seems to be generally uniform) and the Word Bearers, who are arguably amongst the most physically corrupt and distinct Chaos legions, not to mention variations upon the Renegade theme (from newly fallen exiles those who have spent several centuries within the Eye of Terror), there is an enormous amount of scope for determining aesthetics.

 

That said, I'm extremely happy indeed that the Crimson Slaughter have turned the clock back somewhat; providing a new benchmark for how Chaos is generally marketed and perceived but which is clearly influenced by notions of how Chaos used to be, back in the utterly insane and surreal days of RoC, Bolt-Thrower, Harlequin armies, flying Land Raiders, Zoats, Squats, cat-faced Dreadnaughts and all that jazz.

 

 

[Wayniac]

I do agree to an extent.  I found myself looking for pictures and the like of the olden days - John Blanche artwork, old RT-era marines, etc. for that classic vibe that has been lost for a while now.  I've never been a fan of CSM as "spiky Marines" or having them look like WHFB Chaos with sleeker armor, and while I also didn't like the other extreme of "mutants in power armor" (some of the RT-era stuff was downright ridiculous) I definitely found myself enamored with the old twisted/corrupted look that the "Chaos Renegades" of old had.  It made them look distinct and something inhuman.

 

Now if we only got new plastics that had that feel versus "take Marines, add some raised areas, skulls and spikes and horns"

[Yogi]

IMO IMO IMO

 

Chaos space marines, suffering from endless mutation, barely resembling their loyalist brothers, their tanks everything being unrecognizable and bizarre and mutated is cool. If they actually delivered that I wouldn't care about legions actually. Legions would of dissolved into the madness and mutation. Dammeron many people have tried to explain this direction, but your explanation is the first time I get it. RT era is cool as hell. 

 

But there are three problems I see. 

 

Currently most models don't reflect that. And those that do could turn it up a bit more and channel the madness of RT era. 

 

Uniqueness, this is probably the most important part to me. If every 3rd guy has a flaming skull and tentacle feet, it kinda ruins it for me. The kits would have to be capable of being pretty diverse. Cookie cutter chaos is abhorrent in this case. 

 

Fluff. It never really describes them like this (nothing I've read). If Soul hunter was about warp touched madmen raiding realspace, mutating at will and not at will, making pacts with daemons and gods, angry that there is no god of bitterness and they have to settle for Khorne. In an actual warband, with a colour scheme that has altered itself. Laughing as they kill and arranging the corpses into runes. Watching as Spawnhood takes them, without reason. I dunno i think it would help.

 

 

Finally I don't really like any of the new vehicles, they don't seem corrupted nightmares, just stupid.

[Slave to Darkness]

I for one love the new look for chaos power armour minis, bitch to paint for my skill but if you don't try you wont get better huh? :)

What really bugs me is how vehicles are described as bearing a resembalence (sp?) to the Imperial vehicles but being twisted to 'nearly' beyond recognition. *Looks into his Chaos Land Raider box, see' the same kit as Imperial kit and a sprue of toothpicks* I know it keeps costs down only having to produce one kit and a extra sprue to supply two factions, but n business you got to spend money to make money, give us Chaos 'vehicles' and we will give you what ever you want, and the bloody dinobots don't count, we want to see proper messed up stuff here!!!!!

[Scribe]

It speaks greatly to the issue of what just are Chaos Space Marines.

 

If 'recent' renegades can become so corrupted visually, then yes, it should be reflected across the model range.

 

If GW had rebooted the line, like they started with Dark Vengeance, we would have been in a far better place I think and it starts with the basic CSM kit.

 

Give Chaos an identity, give them a unified line, and actually inspire the player base, and I agree, people would wait for 'Legions' if we even asked for them at all.

[Olis]

A unified line? Nothing that has anything to do with Chaos can be unified, or at least not for very long. ;)

[Wayniac]

It speaks greatly to the issue of what just are Chaos Space Marines.

 

If 'recent' renegades can become so corrupted visually, then yes, it should be reflected across the model range.

 

If GW had rebooted the line, like they started with Dark Vengeance, we would have been in a far better place I think and it starts with the basic CSM kit.

 

Give Chaos an identity, give them a unified line, and actually inspire the player base, and I agree, people would wait for 'Legions' if we even asked for them at all.

 

So much this.  I've never been a fan of the WHFB style of Chaos bleeding into 40k.  As I said above I don't like the extreme of some unrecognizable mutant in armor, but I think the current models leave a lot to be desired.  There should be more warping and corruption seeping through; faces and mutations and things poking out, and less just raised edges with points.  Reinforce the fact that everything is weird in the Warp; it's like some kind of sick, twisted Wonderland.

 

I'd even like for the cults to have an identity in that regards - Khorne could have more horns, spikes and bestial heads (think the old Beastmen type of faces).  Nurgle would have the distinctive open sores and moldy look, Plaguebearer heads.  Slaanesh would have tentacles, claws (like the lobster claws), maybe something like "smooth" faces like a mannequin (hard to explain what I mean, I mean like a face that has visible eyes/nose/mouth but no curves or contours) to make them look disturbing.  Tzeentch can have wings, birdlike faces, and like weird contortions of their body since Tzeentch is probably the most chaotic of the mutations.

 

The non-cult troops would look mostly like how the Chosen do - you can tell that they were once Space Marines, but there's a lot "off" about them.  They should look disturbing because of the corruption - I mean looking at them should convey a sense of dread over what they are.

 

TL;DR: Bring back John Blanche style Chaos (but leave RT-era rules in the archive!)

[Scribe]

A unified line? Nothing that has anything to do with Chaos can be unified, or at least not for very long.

Sarcasm Meters being what they are I think you get what I am saying but I'll clarify regardless. :p

There are aspects seen in DV chosen, Helbrutes, Maul/Forgefiends, Raptors, and even the Lord of Skulls. If we had a set of troops (or even the mythical Chosen/Havoc kit) at release! Thats the kind of unified theme I am looking for.

[Olis]

A unified line? Nothing that has anything to do with Chaos can be unified, or at least not for very long.

Sarcasm Meters being what they are I think you get what I am saying but I'll clarify regardless.

I was definitely being facetious. No harm intended. :P

[incinerator950]

In all honesty, the only inspiration I've found is the Thrice-Cursed Luna Wolves, simply because my Wartorn concept got destroyed when they rewrote the Antecannis massacre.  However, I doubt I'd very much use it anyway.

[Dam13n]

So taken by the flesh-metal look of the DV Chosen am I that I personally can't wait until a multi-part Infantry box comes along that fits that aesthetic.

 

I have ideas swimming around inside my head that have lain dormant for years having been born when I first saw John Blanche's artwork and models in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, only to be crushed by the dullness of the 3rd-5th ed. "Spiky Marines".  Maybe, if we see the rumoured Chosen or Havok boxes I can make those ideas a reality on an army-wide basis.

 

I lack the time and patience to convert (sculpt) up from the existing Chaos Marines, or the Tactical Marines for anything more than, maybe, 5 models.  Seeing as I want an army I can enjoy painting and playing with in equal measure, that puts things on the back burner for the time being. 

 

Hopefully we'll see these rumoured boxes soon, as I've long lamented the "Spiky Loyalist" appearance of much of the Chaos model line.

 

Still, new infantry that need no significant converting may leave me enough time to dedicate to making my tanks (which I doubt will ever get done properly) really look the part, so come on GW...

[M@l!ce]

There's a mention in the current Havoc fluff about how their weapons grow to be part of them.  That's something I'd love to see, should we ever get something other than the current Finecrap miniatures we have.

[BitsHammer]

After considering an army of properly gribbly flesh-metal models and looking at the art and then at the models I can say the models are severely lacking and it's a bit depressing. I really want to see more stuff like the Raptors than the "slightly pointier Marines" look most of the line currently has.

 

The visual difference actually bothers my enough that I'm waiting to see if the rumored Chosen come out in/by May before I continue my Crimson Slaughter army because I want them to look a lot more unified and awesome than the current CSM models do.

[minigun762]

There's a mention in the current Havoc fluff about how their weapons grow to be part of them.  That's something I'd love to see, should we ever get something other than the current Finecrap miniatures we have.

 

I don't like that actually. 

I feel that its somewhat of a overdone concept, especially with Obliterators as the ultimate example. 

[NoLifeKing]

I am fine with the lack of over mutation in the current model range. Right now it is possible to reach a desired degree of mutation with conversion work, and you can still keep the "cleaner" look on your marines should you desire it. But what if the models were expressing more of their "chaotic" nature when they came out of their boxes? 

Iron Warrior players(and others who play legion/warband with less mutated looks) would have to scrub off any undesired mutations off of their models and i doubt it the model would look all too good afterwards. Or they would be forced to look for models from entirely different source, or worse… start using loyalist bitz.

[Slave to Darkness]

Im working on a Tzeentch warband (atm Ive only done one test mini as Im still trying to 'feel' the theme of my army, my DV chosen minis are in this army as well as the new Helbrute (my Word Bearers, Plague Marines and Slaanesh Renegades all use the plastic marine dread and I think they would clash with the new design). As a nod to the old Realms of Chaos stuff Im gonna try and convert, sculpt the ass outta everything to make them less 'spiky marines' and more twisted mutated mess of tentacles and wobbly pink bits (not to be confused with Slaanesh's wobbly pink bits though)

[Scribe]

Thing in guys, is that Legion fans (myself being one) have to accept I believe NEVER getting what we want in the main book. Never. The best we can hope for is a Supplement.

 

What I hope is that the main book itself (CSM) can become something that is unified in theme, something that has a feel that people can pick up and run with 'out of the box'.

 

Recent renegades? Nope.

Legions? Nope.

 

The closest (imo) we get is 'Daemonic Symbiosis'.

 

Daemon Weapons, Daemon half breed units, Daemon Engines, Mutation Tables and the Gods, Spawn, and Daemon Princes. If they ever want Chaos to grow up, and be more than Spiky Marines, more than Warbands of once loyal Heresy marines, and more than recently turned renegades that jettison their gear into the nearest Star as soon as they turn....

 

They need to blow up the concept, AND complete the model line unification.

 

I get that the DV set isnt for everyone, I used a lot of FW MK II and MK III in my last sold Chaos army, but at its core, Chaos Space Marines need to be an evolution, a progression, and trancendance of what Space Marines are. They need to be Space Marines freed (or enslaved) by their desires, free to experience the life denied them, and free to grow with the power of the Warp to drive them.

 

With that concept in mind, (DESPITE my unending rage over the treatment of CSM Legions) the Crimson Slaughter book is a massive step in the right direction, thematically. 

[BitsHammer]

I think FW is a better option for making Iron Warriors, and other Traitor Legions who reject Chaos.

 

That or loyalist kits.

[Wayniac]

I think FW is a better option for making Iron Warriors, and other Traitor Legions who reject Chaos.

 

That or loyalist kits.

 

Barring the inflated cost of FW stuff, right? ;)

[Biaz]

I think FW is a better option for making Iron Warriors, and other Traitor Legions who reject Chaos.

That or loyalist kits.

Barring the inflated cost of FW stuff, right?

That depends entirely on where you live

[Dammeron]

I'd also argue that rules wise the Crimson Slaughter supplement provides a better overall benchmark or scaffold for a standard Chaos Space Marine force than anything we've had for quite some time: Fear as standard, whilst not necessarily game breaking, is a perfectly characterful and appropriate baseline rule for Chaos Space Marine forces to have, considering their penchant for self mutilation, stringing themselves with trophies, kill  markings etc, not to mention the various mutations they sport. Similarly, the ability to take Possessed as troops should have been a no brainer for most Chaos Space Marine forces; even if you don't use them to represent Possessed per se, they could easily represent those whose mutations have driven them to the edge of spawndom, or the experimental test subjects of Fabius Bile etc etc. The new artefacts and warlord traits are also highly adaptable and applicable across a wide range of playing styles, different backgrounds etc. As previously mentioned, the book is an enormous step in the right direction, and gives me hope concerning future supplements, whether they be legion or renegade based.

[totgeboren]

I started playing at the end of RT, but it was not until GW released the 2ed metal csm models that I got hooked. I love the look of these old baroque evil looking marines with hoses and rivets all over.

 

The new style, though I can't say I don't like it, I can't say I like it as much. I want my csm to look like they could actually function, and be able to survive between battles and so on. Having Havocs with the weapons constantly attached is just lame. How would they do something as simple as eat? Or cleaning out the barrel? 'Sorry, your lascannon is attached to you, you will just have to ask someone to help you if you get some dirt on your optics.'

 

Lame.

 

Good thing we have FW, I'm just buying Mk IV and Mk V stuff from them and modding. Much more to my liking.

[Hellrender]

The symbiosis thing is a bit overdone. Obliterators (same feel), Mutilators, Bikers (just read the 6th ed codex entree), and the heldrake pilot. Dont think havocs are needed on top of that.

[Rasclomalum]

Doesn't this satisfy both the need for more unique Chaos models and Chaos space marines remaining human functionality though? Certainly not mutated beyond reason, yet sufficiently distinct from loyalist marines. 

[the jeske]

Mutations or rather heavy mutations as options are good , chaos marines should always have those options. But those should be options , if someone wants to play low  AL or IW that replace mutated body parts with bionics , shouldn't have to resculpt whole models.