Why are most (all?) HQ options designed for C&C?

[King Jackal]

 

Do you think that is a fair statement for all legions and chapters?

All I mean is that I can think of several examples that prefer to do their fighting from afar.

I remember reading on here, when 6th was fairly fresh - the idea of buying a 'Daemon Weapon' special rule for HQ melee options. It would be cool if you could buy the same rule for ranged weapons with a slight variation on what it does to the weapon.

 

I almost read this wrong, but you're saying have adaptable morphing Demon Weapons that have ranged variations?

Without putting much thought into it and just as an very imperfect example of what I mean:

 

Roll a D6 at the start of your shooting phase, on 2+ you may alter your weapon characteristics. Expend your dice roll as points one at a time to increase the weapon strength, decrease the weapons AP and increase the volume of shots. For example, Lord Soandso rolls a 5 on his Daemon Weapon test and the decides to increase his daemonic combi bolter's strength by 2 (6) and decrease the the AP by 3 (3) for a total of 5. On a roll of 1 the beater takes an immediate wound with no armour or cover save allowed and his Ballistic Skill is 1 until the end of the phase

[incinerator950]

That brings up a fair point of why we don't have Obliterator Morph Weapons.  Or better dual pistols, or the Kai Gun, Phlegm Rifles...

 

Oh god my brain is melting.

[Wayniac]

Chaos Lords need to be able to put a hurt on anybody in their warband who thinks they're tough enough to take his place.

 

Great point here as well :D

[Cpt_Reaper]

My lord used to run around with the tzeentch daemon weapon in 4th/5th...the gun that was a sword? What was it called? >__<

 

Anyway...my mate also ran the same weapon but used it exclusively as a gun (his was a assault cannon with a necron rod replacing the barrel) and supported ranged squads whereas my lord had an axe that could launch magical projectiles (like the helix sword from majora's mask)

 

Also...is the kai gun the thing the ye olde metal terminator lord has as an arm option?

[Wayniac]

My lord used to run around with the tzeentch daemon weapon in 4th/5th...the gun that was a sword? What was it called? >__<

 

Anyway...my mate also ran the same weapon but used it exclusively as a gun (his was a assault cannon with a necron rod replacing the barrel) and supported ranged squads whereas my lord had an axe that could launch magical projectiles (like the helix sword from majora's mask)

 

Also...is the kai gun the thing the ye olde metal terminator lord has as an arm option?

 

Pretty sure the original metal terminator captain (if you mean the RT-era one "Traitor Terminator Captain") had a funky looking storm bolter/combi-bolter and the typical power sword/chainfist/daemon sword weapons.  The old "Traitor Assault Cannon" was like a long-barreled gun with a daemonic head.  Funnily enough I still really love the look of that chaos terminator captain - anyone know if he's the same size as the newer terminators?

 

http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2019smtraitorinqtermina-01.jpg

[King Jackal]

My lord used to run around with the tzeentch daemon weapon in 4th/5th...the gun that was a sword? What was it called? >__<

 

Anyway...my mate also ran the same weapon but used it exclusively as a gun (his was a assault cannon with a necron rod replacing the barrel) and supported ranged squads whereas my lord had an axe that could launch magical projectiles (like the helix sword from majora's mask)

The Deathscreamer?

[Chaeron]

It's a combination of that physical, martial prowess that appears to be valued above else that then influences the design - generally, you don't find snipers leading battalions because they're used to working alone and independently, and those who are superior marksmen are no doubt siphoned off to Devastator/Havoc squads. It's a different sort of warfare really, that whilst frustrating for us, isn't too problematic. I struggle to think of what an appropriate replacement would actually be in those circumstances anyway!

[Xenith]

Seeing as C&C means 'comments and criticism', I'd say it was the general lack of options and poorly thought out nature of the HQ choices.

[incinerator950]

It's a combination of that physical, martial prowess that appears to be valued above else that then influences the design - generally, you don't find snipers leading battalions because they're used to working alone and independently, and those who are superior marksmen are no doubt siphoned off to Devastator/Havoc squads. It's a different sort of warfare really, that whilst frustrating for us, isn't too problematic. I struggle to think of what an appropriate replacement would actually be in those circumstances anyway!

 

Dual MC Plasma Pistols that count as two CCW and a power weapon in CC?  Or a Flechette autocannon/heavy repeating Phlegm shotgun. 

 

Lord can take Havocs as retinue instead could also work.  An Army that favors ranged weapons should also have Lords that either support or specialize shooting things.  The way I see it is like playing Too Human, you have classes that hybrid, specialize in melee or range, or support.  I don't see why we can't do the same, taking heavy weapons to better effect, and having more ranged relics and Demon Weapons.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The problem with most weapons -- be they specials or heavies -- is that they tend to have too few shots or too little possible impact on the battlefield to burden an HQ with it.  Would anyone rightly take a stock AC or heavy bolter on a Chaos Lord?  Probably not; I know that *I* wouldn't.  In fact, the one special-to-HQ heavy weapon is a good concept of an HQ shooting weapon done reasonably right: the conversion beamer for the Master of the Forge.  Here's a weapon capable of a S10 AP1 shot and its a template to boot, so it can threaten any target and has a good range.  To make a support-by-fire HQ weapon, that's what you need.  IMHO, anyway.

 

I'd like to see a weapon for Chaos Lords that is either a daemon weapon -- and thus generates a set number of shots +d6 like the melee daemon weapons -- or else generates a number of shots equal to say the bearer's basic Attack value or basic Ballistic Skill value, something of that nature.  S6 AP3 or 4 seems good to me, making it an ideal anti-infantry weapon, with perhaps Armorbane or Rending to provide an additional anti-armor punch.

 

Whether such an item will ever see the light of day is of course out of my hands, but I still think it's a good idea.

[Kilofix]

 

My lord used to run around with the tzeentch daemon weapon in 4th/5th...the gun that was a sword? What was it called? >__<

 

Anyway...my mate also ran the same weapon but used it exclusively as a gun (his was a assault cannon with a necron rod replacing the barrel) and supported ranged squads whereas my lord had an axe that could launch magical projectiles (like the helix sword from majora's mask)

 

Also...is the kai gun the thing the ye olde metal terminator lord has as an arm option?

 

Pretty sure the original metal terminator captain (if you mean the RT-era one "Traitor Terminator Captain") had a funky looking storm bolter/combi-bolter and the typical power sword/chainfist/daemon sword weapons.  The old "Traitor Assault Cannon" was like a long-barreled gun with a daemonic head.  Funnily enough I still really love the look of that chaos terminator captain - anyone know if he's the same size as the newer terminators?

 

http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2019smtraitorinqtermina-01.jpg

 

The old Terminators are slightly smaller (narrower more like - especially in the shoulders) than the new ones. Not sure if it was a design decision or just a side-effect of making the transition to plastic.

 

Edit - figured I should add something more pertaining to the OT.

 

I guess now that folks have mentioned it - it is kinda weird that most HQ can't pick heavy weapons. I'm just now starting GKs too and it was odd to find that OM HQs can take Psycannons. Actually, it's even odd that most HQs can't even be kitted out to have Ranged, Pistol and CC (like Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CC).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

Actually, it's even odd that most HQs can't even be kitted out to have Ranged, Pistol and CC (like Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CC).

 

Especially for Chaos Lords, since their underlings -- the Aspiring Champs -- all come with that loadout by default.

[Cpt_Reaper]

The terminator lord I speak of wasn't that old...maybe 2nd/3rd edition? The gun looks like a plasma cannon with pipes bursting up out of the shoulder. I assume this is or was a kai gun

[M@l!ce]

So I noticed a little technical twinkery when I was looking at the "plasma pistols suck" thread earlier.  So some might accept that he wording of four models in in the Chosen weapon options section means the Chosen Champion is a part of that, as it doesn't say four Chosen.

 

Okay, so, say you replace the bolt pistol of your champion with a plasma pistol from the chosen options list.  This then leaves you one weapon to be replaced by a Ranged weapon from the wargear list.  Make this a plasma pistol, and there you go, dual plasma.

[incinerator950]

Well it has more to do with the weapons list saying you may only take one of a certain item.  The ruling for fists and claws is different, hence why you can take pairs or one of each.

[Minsc]

Most armies have HQ's who are leaning towards either close combat or support, or even a combination of the two.

I'd say that Tau is the only army who have a dedicated shooty-HQ.

Tyranids can with the correct biomorphs/weapons be considered to have shooty-HQ's as well, but they can still usually hold their own in close combat.

Necrons can have shooty Crypteks, but they aren't (imo) HQ in the general sense.

 

CSM:

Fighter: Chaos Lord, Daemon Prince.

Fighter-Support hybrid: Chaos Sorcerer, Dark Apostile.

Shooter-Support hybrid: Warpsmith. 

 

SM:

Fighter: Chapter Master, Captain.

Fighter-Support hybrid: Librarian, Chaplain.

Shooter-Support hybrid; Master of the Forge.

 

Chaos Daemons:

Basically all the Greater Daemons and Heralds are all either Fighters / Fighter-Support hybrids / Supports. Not even the Tzeentch Herald is solely a dedicated shooter.

 

Eldar:

Fighter: Autarch, Avatar, Phoenix Lords.

Support: Farseer.

 

Imperial Guard:

Support: Company Commander, Commissar Lord.

 

Dark Eldar:

Fighter: Archon.

Fighter-Support hybrid: Haemonculus.

 

Orks:

Fighter: Warboss.

Support: Weirdboyz, Big Mek's.

 

Sisters of Battle: (unsure about them.)

Fighter: Canoness

Support: Priests/Psykers(?)

 

Necrons;

Fighter-Support hybrid: Necron Overlord, Destroyer Lord.

 

Tyranids:

Fighter-Support hybrid: Tyrant, Prime.

Shooter-Fighter hybrid: Tyrant & Prime with shooty options.

 

And so lastly, we have Tau:

Support: Etheral.

Shooter-Support Hybrid: Fireblade.

Shooter - Tau Commander.

[Kilofix]

Just some other shooty HQs:

 

Technically the IG Company can be shooty even if the Commander isn't on his own and if you allow IA lists then the IG Armored BG list has a Leman Russ HQ.

 

Grey Knights can field that OM HQ that can be shooty.

 

 

Character-wise:

 

Space Wolves - Bjorn is kinda shooty.

 

Dark Angels - Sammael on Corvex is kinda shooty.

 

Cypher is shooty.

 

Eldar have a bunch of kinda shooty characters like - Maugen Ra