Iron Father Ferrum Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Well, I'm a Traitor, the idea that the Emperor was demonstrably too stupid to live is fine by me. I'm surprised you Loyalists are all so accepting of it, though. Emperor? Pssh. In nomine Omnissiah. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 The Emperor knew Curze would become a precog, justiciar. Not that Nostramo would turn him into Crispin Glover in the process. The Emperor knew Angron would be a great warrior-general, he didn't suspect that he would have his brain mutilated by slave catchers. So why did the Emperor give his precognitive justicar an army that was "born to the darkness! Shaped and molded by it! That never beheld the light until they were men grown, and then it burned like fire!" Or his warrior-general a horde of monsters whose grasp of tactics covers two points only: 1. "Blood for the Blood Emperor! CHAAAAARRRRGE!" 2. "[Redacted] ATTRITION RATES!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinoDoc Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I'm slightly more interested in why he left the nail in Angron's head. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 It would kill him to take it out? That's what Lorgar said in Butcher's Nails before he. . . well, to avoid spoilers, let's just say "before he changed his mind." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I think it's pretty much established that the procedure would've killed Angron. And it was Angron that made the World Eaters complete monsters with the nails, which isn't really something that could be easily antecipated. The Emperor probably relied on blood ties, and he wanted to see his sons and grandsons fighting as a family for ol' pops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I agree with Legatus and Wade, it doesn't make much sense in the whole scheme of things. It makes more sense for all Legions to be vanilla until being reunited with their gene-sire, and then taking up the traits that he gained from his homeworld, not preprogramed into his DNA. As an example, Curze was one of the Primarchs most moulded by the environment he grew up in. Say if he landed on Macragge instead, it's logical to assume that he would have ended up much different. But when found by the Emperor he would still have been put in command of the Night Lords, who were recruited from murderers and rapists living in complete darkness in some underground prison, who would be better suited for Nostramon Guilliman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I am so sorry for derailing the trhead with yet more annoyed rambling about GW writing/re-writing. That Alpha Legion, ey? Sneaky bastards before they became sneaky bastards. And apparently (see other thread) the Primarchs have yet another secret that may or may not be unveiled in one of the final HH books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Re: Angron made the XII monsters Not according to Forge World. The War Hounds first pre-Primarch battle of note involved them charging a prison world that had risen in revolt, and slaughtering every living thing on it in spite of their own enormous casualties. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 True, I meant in the 'screw strategy, we have bodies' sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 And apparently (see other thread) the Primarchs have yet another secret that may or may not be unveiled in one of the final HH books. Yeah, the secret of making people read way too much into it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 The Emperor knew Curze would become a precog, justiciar. Not that Nostramo would turn him into Crispin Glover in the process. The Emperor knew Angron would be a great warrior-general, he didn't suspect that he would have his brain mutilated by slave catchers. So why did the Emperor give his precognitive justicar an army that was "born to the darkness! Shaped and molded by it! That never beheld the light until they were men grown, and then it burned like fire!" Or his warrior-general a horde of monsters whose grasp of tactics covers two points only: 1. "Blood for the Blood Emperor! CHAAAAARRRRGE!" 2. "[Redacted] ATTRITION RATES!" Well we know that 2 Primarchs were found, one 3rd and one about halfway through. So the precedent for a 'grace period' is there. While I think the two Primarchs were clearly a little off their rocker and it doesn't make sense to me why the Emperor would let the be in charge once they lost their minds, the Best evidence we have for what Angron and Kurze would've been like absent Nostramo and the Nails is the War Hounds and 8th Legion. The War Hounds were noted as being capable if a little brutal. The 8th Legion was used as enforcers before they found Kurze, and took recruits from the dregs of society because they had a sociopaths mindset. If you were creating a secret police to enforce your regime, would you honestly select moral people who believed in human rights and freedom? Or would you pick people who ask no questions and have no qualms about following gruesome orders? If you needed an army of warriors who didn't baulk at attritional warfare and had the mindset if tearing down everything their enemies had to thoroughly end the threat, wouldn't you want someone like the war hounds? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I agree with Legatus and Wade, it doesn't make much sense in the whole scheme of things. It makes more sense for all Legions to be vanilla until being reunited with their gene-sire, and then taking up the traits that he gained from his homeworld, not preprogramed into his DNA. As an example, Curze was one of the Primarchs most moulded by the environment he grew up in. Say if he landed on Macragge instead, it's logical to assume that he would have ended up much different. But when found by the Emperor he would still have been put in command of the Night Lords, who were recruited from murderers and rapists living in complete darkness in some underground prison, who would be better suited for Nostramon Guilliman. Curze would've still suffered from his prophetic dreams, no? Angron wouldn't have been "nailed" if he landed anywhere but Nuceria though, so I get your poinr. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I'm going to imagine the initial space wolf recruits are kept separate from the other legions like the first salamander and alpha legion recruits as part of the trefoil. Also, Russ was found second after Horus, so there isn't much time for the space wolves to develop away from the Fenrisians. Not denying youre wrong Marshall, but where is this stated? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonlover Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I like the idea that each Legion had a... predilection, for want of a better word, towards a certain way of war/military thought. So the XX Legion could do everything, but when they got sent on a covert thing, it just felt right. This leads to them seeking out opportunities to take more covert missions/gaining a rep for being damn good at them. Interestingly, I think this also explains why the Iron Warriors got so hacked off with always being the garrison troops. We know that Perturabo had a lot of artisan flair to him, it's hard to indulge that trait when you're stuck on a planet with nine other guys that get where you're coming from and the teeming masses of idiot humanity. Especially if although your Primarch expresses his thing in grandiose designs, the only way you can express it is 'Hot damn, that is one impenetrable redoubt! Let's work out how to break it down!' Dragonlover Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Horus Leman Russ [DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS] Ferrus Manus Fulgrim Vulkan Rogal Dorn Roboute Guilliman Magnus the Red Sanguiniusbbb Lion El'Jonson Perturabo Mortarion Lorgar Jaghatai Khan Konrad Curze Angron Corax [DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS] Alpharius From first expedition. The BL editor posted it. Also, I was wrong about the Lost Primarchs apparently one was found right after Corax. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopkins Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 food for thought on primarch's (and therefore legion's) DNA and traits, and also the planets they ended up on from scars 'I could tell you that the fates decreed Fulgrim to be sent to Chogoris and you to Chemos, and I could tell you which arcane force in the universe prevented it.' told by magnus to the khan maybe he's been trolled again, but there could me more to it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3638995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareddm Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 One is a coincidence, two is a pattern.* I'm okay with the pre-Curze Night Lords being very similar to Nostraman. It even said in Book 2 that the Night Lords had one of the fastest and smoothest integrations of pre-primarch with post-primarch marines of any of the legions. The World Eaters don't really bother me too much because I feel even with some impact of Angron's geneseed, they might have been nuts in battle but they weren't killing each other out of battle in gladiator pits. That was all Angron and the Nails. With the Alpha Legion, they were listed alongside the Space Wolves and the Salamanders as having been singled out by the Emperor for other purposes, with all information about their creation and early development suppressed, so I wouldn't be surprised if these three ended up much closer in to their primarchs than others. You can see in Vulkan this incredible rage, but it was tempered by his homeworld. Pre-Vulkan, the Salamanders were also a very self-destructive legion until Vulkan brought the teachings of his homeworld to them. *Yes, technically three is required for a pattern, but it's just how the saying goes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3639030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I kind of think the Death Guard altered significantly from being reunited by Mortarion, they went from being praised and honored by their fellow legions to being censored by two fellow primarchs and moving to the edges of the crusade. They started using poisons and chemical warfare and they dispensed with the standard military formations they previously had. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3639043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 food for thought on primarch's (and therefore legion's) DNA and traits, and also the planets they ended up on from scars 'I could tell you that the fates decreed Fulgrim to be sent to Chogoris and you to Chemos, and I could tell you which arcane force in the universe prevented it.' told by magnus to the khan maybe he's been trolled again, but there could me more to it I love it when the Horus Heresy books retroactively validate some decision made in one of my projects. Scars provided a validation for both. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3639051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 One is a coincidence, two is a pattern.* I'm okay with the pre-Curze Night Lords being very similar to Nostraman. It even said in Book 2 that the Night Lords had one of the fastest and smoothest integrations of pre-primarch with post-primarch marines of any of the legions. The World Eaters don't really bother me too much because I feel even with some impact of Angron's geneseed, they might have been nuts in battle but they weren't killing each other out of battle in gladiator pits. That was all Angron and the Nails. With the Alpha Legion, they were listed alongside the Space Wolves and the Salamanders as having been singled out by the Emperor for other purposes, with all information about their creation and early development suppressed, so I wouldn't be surprised if these three ended up much closer in to their primarchs than others. You can see in Vulkan this incredible rage, but it was tempered by his homeworld. Pre-Vulkan, the Salamanders were also a very self-destructive legion until Vulkan brought the teachings of his homeworld to them. *Yes, technically three is required for a pattern, but it's just how the saying goes. "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, thrice is enemy action. Frankly Mr. Bond, I hope we don't meet again." -Auric Goldfinger Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3639065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Question, the Emperor had a psychic link to the Primarchs the whole time, right? Is it possible he molded them in certain ways on purpose to make the transition as easy as possible? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3639091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Not all of them, though. With Magnus, yes. Lorgar, maybe. Bit with most it seems like he just had a rough idea of where they might be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3639094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I agree with Legatus and Wade, it doesn't make much sense in the whole scheme of things. It makes more sense for all Legions to be vanilla until being reunited with their gene-sire, and then taking up the traits that he gained from his homeworld, not preprogramed into his DNA. As an example, Curze was one of the Primarchs most moulded by the environment he grew up in. Say if he landed on Macragge instead, it's logical to assume that he would have ended up much different. But when found by the Emperor he would still have been put in command of the Night Lords, who were recruited from murderers and rapists living in complete darkness in some underground prison, who would be better suited for Nostramon Guilliman. Curze would've still suffered from his prophetic dreams, no? Angron wouldn't have been "nailed" if he landed anywhere but Nuceria though, so I get your poinr. Very true, but if he had been raised by Konor or even growing up alone on Macragge, I think he would have learnt to deal with the visions a lot better. The World Eaters are different because their personality is a result of brain implants rather than a genetic code. Not all Primarchs and Legions are like this, like other posters have mentioned the Salamanders and the Death Guard changed greatly when reunited with their Primarchs, I'd just prefer it if it was most/all of the Legions that it happened to. RE That quote from Scars, we don't really know what that quote means. Is fate actually fate, as in happenstance, or is fate Chaos, or is it the Emperor? The Emperor could have planned the scattering of the Primarchs to allow them to grow up and gain life experiences separately and to rise as individuals, and maybe he planned which planets they would go to but Chaos intervened and sent each Primarch to a different planet. Or maybe Chaos planned which planet they would go to but the Emperor managed to give it a small nudge and send each Primarch to the planets he chose, or maybe it was simply fate that decreed which planet each Primarch would go to and the Chaos gods nudged it so they would end up on the planets/upbringing most likely to create a flaw in their character and make them easier to turn. 'I could tell you that the fates decreed Fulgrim to be sent to Chogoris and you to Chemos, and I could tell you which arcane force in the universe prevented it.' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3639098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I think the Primarchs landings were far from coincidence, whether the Emperor, Fate or the Chaos Gods they went where they did for a reason.We can argue Nature v Nurture till the cows come home but generally I think things ended up the way they did because they were meant to, especially regards the Legions characters. The Emperor built the primarchs from the ground up, he knows full well what his purpose for each of them was going to be and when they disappeared he ensured the Legions would fit as closely as possible to their sires, or exploited the genetic predispositions the geneseed would impart for various tasks.More on topic, one of Alpharius' Origin stories has him leading the Legion from the very start... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3639102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Not all of them, though. With Magnus, yes. Lorgar, maybe. Bit with most it seems like he just had a rough idea of where they might be. But he used their psychic beacons to find them, no? So isn't that a link of sorts? Its possible that he could have seen flashes of their personalities and then made them according to what he saw. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/page/2/#findComment-3639109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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