Iron Warrior info from book 3?

[Marshal Rohr]

When Perturabo rejoined his Legion, he decided that since they were not the best of all the Legions, they would be punished. Their punishment was old school Roman Decimation. The losers were drawn by lots and were beaten to death by the lucky ones. 

[Marshal Rohr]

His reasoning was simply that they hadn't become the best. Which caused others in the Imperial Court to freak out because they were a very accomplished legion with no shortage of victories.

 

 

Perturabo is a lot like the dad that spanks his kids at the end of every day for all the bad things they might've done that he hadn't seen.

[Wade Garrett]

So Rogal Dorn's flaw is that he was so taciturn he couldn't express all the love deep in his heart.

 

Meanwhile, Perturabo is Mustache Twirling Stupid Evil kills a tenth of his Legion, not the bottom tenth, mind you, but a randomly selected tenth, because his shiny new toy isn't the shiniest.

 

We may now add Pert to the "What in the Warp was the Emperor thinking when he put this lunatic in charge of an army of superhumans?" contingent.

[Marshal Rohr]

It's a bit more developed than that Wade. I can't just copy paste it here :D he does it because he is setting the tone for his command the only way he knows how, and sending a message for what is to be expected and the price of failure. Perturabo is easily the smartest Primarch this side of Magnus, but his intellect and upbringing don't allow him to see things beyond problems to be deconstructed. Remember this is the guy who has warfare down to precise calculation. He gives Guilliman a run for his money on exactly how much men, machines, and material they need to set up a campaign and have it run like a clock.

 

 

Actually, yeh. Imagine war is a fine Swiss watch and Perturabo is the watch maker. He knows exactly what he needs, how to tune it, and then unleashes it. Any problems that come after are flaws in the parts, not the plan. The parts of course being human lives.

 

 

As for Dorn's flaw, it isn't that he can't express himself. When he does it's ground shattering. There is a mention of him berating lagging reinforcements into action when they start slowing down. His flaw is that he won't express himself. Horus would make a brother mad and make amends later. Dorn would make a brother mad and never mention it again. He is specifically noted for being passed over as Warmaster because he refused to try and make amends or compromise. He didn't ever explain himself either, and took challenges as insults.

[Wade Garrett]

I'll give ground on Dorn, but I still think it makes Perturabo look bat :cuss: insane and should have tripped all kinds of "This Primarch might be susceptible to the blandishments of Chaos" warning bells.

[Hyaenidae]

Number one: Genetics, here in the 21st century, has already come to the point that people are afraid of 'test tube designer babies'; parents who can pick and choose how they want their kids to look. Is it really such a stretch to believe that mental traits could not be altered either? Normal humans have been able to selectively breed wild wolves into docile Dachshunds over the course of mankinds' existence; why couldn't the greatest mind in human history, with all the non-existent and far fetched super-science of the 31st millennium, with a deal with four immortal daemon-gods added to the mix, select the defining mental and psychological traits of his demi-god sons?

 

Number two: If Kurze had landed on Macragge, would he have become a great man? Or would the Emperor have arrived to find his son standing upon a grave-world of imagined sin? Or would whoever found Kurze have seen a mutant, and bashed his head off the nearest rock?

 

Number three: Perturabo didn't just take the IV Legion, who kicked much butt, said "you're not kicking enough butt", and killed a bunch of his sons. He took over a Legion whose single-minded obsession with never taking a backstep in the name of honour during a siege almost killed them, who were being viewed as waning stars by the Imperial Court, and led by officers who used honor as an excuse for tactical incompetence, and taught them a lesson they couldn't ever forget. And they didn't. So Perty wasn't all hugs and happiness when he was reunited with his Legion.... who is really surprised by this? Lastly, the Imperial Court went bonkers when he decimated his own legion, yes.... and then the Emperor told them to shut up. Which leads me to my last point...

 

Number four: All of these things assume that the Emperor of Mankinds was a rational, sane, compassionate superhuman. Which he never was. Yes, he wanted to preserve humanity from extinction, but HIS vision of humanity, not humanity's vision of humanity. Thus why everybody who didn't match his views died, badly.

 

The dude had a plan. There's no saying it was a plan we would have liked.

[Yogi]

Perturbo decimation of his own legion confirms him a failure in my eyes. Suitably grim dark and stupid.

[Hyaenidae]

Sneaky sneaky, sir.... caught me while I was typing.

 

Perturbo decimation of his own legion confirms him a failure in my eyes. Suitably grim dark and stupid.

 

Not to claim he was meant to lead the Imperium, and I can agree that he and many other primarchs are failures.... but why stupid?

[Kol Saresk]

Sneaky sneaky, sir.... caught me while I was typing.

 

 

 

Perturbo decimation of his own legion confirms him a failure in my eyes. Suitably grim dark and stupid.

Not to claim he was meant to lead the Imperium, and I can agree that he and many other primarchs are failures.... but why stupid?

because use of a time-honored tradition of punishment equals stupid. Apparently.

[Visitor13]

 

Sneaky sneaky, sir.... caught me while I was typing.

 

 

Perturbo decimation of his own legion confirms him a failure in my eyes. Suitably grim dark and stupid.

Not to claim he was meant to lead the Imperium, and I can agree that he and many other primarchs are failures.... but why stupid?

because use of a time-honored tradition of punishment equals stupid. Apparently.

 

Because use of a time-honored stupid punishment in which death is dispensed according to chance and not incompetence equals stupid. Most definitely. ;)

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

Sneaky sneaky, sir.... caught me while I was typing.

 

 

 

Perturbo decimation of his own legion confirms him a failure in my eyes. Suitably grim dark and stupid.

Not to claim he was meant to lead the Imperium, and I can agree that he and many other primarchs are failures.... but why stupid?

because use of a time-honored tradition of punishment equals stupid. Apparently.

Because use of a time-honored stupid punishment in which death is dispensed according to chance and not incompetence equals stupid. Most definitely. ;)

And yet the Roman military is still looked at one of the top fighting forces in history. So whose dumber, the man who uses something proven to work, or the man who calls it stupid?

[Perrin]

Sneaky sneaky, sir.... caught me while I was typing.

Perturbo decimation of his own legion confirms him a failure in my eyes. Suitably grim dark and stupid.

Not to claim he was meant to lead the Imperium, and I can agree that he and many other primarchs are failures.... but why stupid?

because use of a time-honored tradition of punishment equals stupid. Apparently.

Because use of a time-honored stupid punishment in which death is dispensed according to chance and not incompetence equals stupid. Most definitely.

And yet the Roman military is still looked at one of the top fighting forces in history. So whose dumber, the man who uses something proven to work, or the man who calls it stupid?

The use of decimation by the Roman military has been massively exaggerated it seems. It was only ever used a handful of times throughout Rome's entire history. Even when it was used it was seen as a barbaric ancient custom, and those commanders who used it were seen as incredibly old-fashioned.

Also, what effect does it actually have? It destroys morale and lowers the fighting strength of a unit.

[Greyall]

The Ultramarines shot civilians at Monarchia with little to no issues, so why would beating your brothers be a necessary tactic to make you a hard mofo? Other, more vicious Legions than the Iron Warriors didn't resort to it and were none the less successful. The Irons' legendary cool-headedness didn't require such a thing.

 

Especially since it was simply borne out of pettiness and jealousy by a Primarch full of potential - and little else, thanks to himself.

[FunkyMonkey]

Sneaky sneaky, sir.... caught me while I was typing.

Perturbo decimation of his own legion confirms him a failure in my eyes. Suitably grim dark and stupid.

Not to claim he was meant to lead the Imperium, and I can agree that he and many other primarchs are failures.... but why stupid?

because use of a time-honored tradition of punishment equals stupid. Apparently.

Because use of a time-honored stupid punishment in which death is dispensed according to chance and not incompetence equals stupid. Most definitely.

The random chance is the entire point of the decimation. The unit, as a whole, is punished. The unit, as a whole, is at fault, so everyone in the unit has a nominally equal chance of being punished. The idea that you could randomly be killed for the failings of another binds the unit together and causes the warriors of the unit to constantly police one another. Discipline shoots up overnight as offenders and slackers would be beaten into shape by their battle brothers. I wouldn't say it's the most effective method of building unit cohesion, and without a doubt it kills morale, but it definitely has its merits.

[Marshal Rohr]

It doesn't kill morale if you get to vote instead :P

[Tenebris]

Hmm Angron did perform decimation on daily basis, he simply found an enemy and he threw his rabid dogs against it. One in ten made it out alive which is a far more serious thing than out of ten one died... But really, decimation is not something all that strange when we speak of Iron Warriors, Warsmiths have been demoted for far less than simple incompetence. 

 

Is that old fashioned, a way to run a legion, something to rail against? No, it sent the message across the legion, it showed who is top dog and being silently sanctioned by the Emperor is proved a statement and in fact it proved law, you fail Perturabo, you die. 

[Greyall]

It definitely has its effects would be a better way to state it, I'd say.

 

Is a group in which you're feeling constantly policed and under pressure better than one in which there's healthy competition between members, a certain pride in being first (individually and collectively) and a collective goal larger than 'I mustn' make any mistakes'?

 

When you add such practices as shooting the messenger (in 'The Crimson Fist'), it's easy to see Perturabo didn't exactly foster a high-demand team so much as a 'every man for himself' environment. Sure, Iron Warriors worked together as cogs in a mechanism, but they were also incredibly backstabbing and sabotaged each others' ascension. It produces results, no doubt, but put bitterness as one of the Legion's fuel sources, which led to hubris, false assumptions and, ultimately, being underdogs to the Imperial Fists and defeats as in Phall.

 

The subtle difference to the Imperial Fists - producing the good kind of pride - wasn't so subtle after all. The Iron's were effective - but nobody gave a damn. When you act as an underdog, you get treated likewise, often.

[Tenebris]

Well it certainly reduces the need to babysit the legion. If you do a mistake your fellow brothers will beat you a ten times over so you remember it. It is not healthy nor fraternal but it is indeed a very effective way to run a legion of hundreds of thousands. Not only enforces rule, it subjects every individual to social sanction which eventually leads to orders being carried without question. Weakness is stamped out of you on so many levels that what you actually become is pure iron. It begs to notice that Ferrus had a similar way to run his legion, surely not so draconic but ruthless nonetheless. Perty wanted a tool to use as he sees fit, well he shaped his legion in a tool that would serve only him and serve they did. 

 

But back on topic, Alpha Legion is king here. And damn as hell I want to learn more about the Snakes. I wonder if there will be some mention of lodges or how they functioned in a legion that breathed secrets... Also I wonder if there were actually some Alpha Legion marines that recoiled at the commands of Alpharius when there was time to shoot loyalist brothers. But what really interests me is how the Alpha Legion managed to concile killing brother and at the same time believing that you serve the Emperor, this mindframe is what interest me most when we speak of HH era Alpha Legion. In M41 this would be a forlorn thing at best, an archaic notice. 

[Noctus Cornix]

The use of decimation by the Roman military has been massively exaggerated it seems. It was only ever used a handful of times throughout Rome's entire history. Even when it was used it was seen as a barbaric ancient custom, and those commanders who used it were seen as incredibly old-fashioned.

 

Also, what effect does it actually have? It destroys morale and lowers the fighting strength of a unit. 

 

And, as far as I can tell, Perturabo only did it once.

 

What effect does it have? It kills off the weak and the failures. We may deign the death of a warrior in punishment as needless or stupid, but we come from domesticated society where the human life if valued and are given the philosophy of 'second chances'. For genetically engineered killing machine warriors, there is no room for error, no second chances, and no tolerance of weakness. They levels of punishment varied across the Legions, but the Iron Warriors, Iron Hands, and World Eaters are noted to cull weakness with impunity and this is part of their culture.

 

It certainly doesn't 'lower morale', especially when it comes to the no nonsense warriors of the IV Legion. This is a lesson to show the price of failure and that there will be no further tolerance for such. It may dishearten warriors for a short time, but in the end this teaches them only to prove themselves worthy in the eyes of their gene-father and ensure that they will never fall as their brothers did before. This is something the X Legion would no towards with great agreement.

[Greyall]

Will the FW book touch mindframes? I feel they take a more detached, report-like view on the matters of the Legion, hinting at private rumours but rarely going past info that could be taken from reading multiple reports and talking to some people.

 

I'm making assumptions, of course, but the five options for Alpharius' origins do give credence to them. Black Library shows us what truly happened, the Heresy books how a future historian might see it.

 

Edit:

 

@noctus: The X Legion fell to various degrees of madness after Isstvan V, the problem with this kind of darwinism is that failure will still eventually happen, because it always does, and dealing with it gets increasingly difficult and, in the end, harsher. It does push for effectiveness, but at the cost of straining the individual minds, causing greater collapses (like purging your entire homeworld because one must be sure...). You can never cull 'the weak' out of any group, it's impossible to reach equal degrees of competence when dealing with the collective. You'll only be pushing for intolerance and, in the end, making individuals sabotage each other for perceived weakness and inferiority.

[Perrin]

 

The use of decimation by the Roman military has been massively exaggerated it seems. It was only ever used a handful of times throughout Rome's entire history. Even when it was used it was seen as a barbaric ancient custom, and those commanders who used it were seen as incredibly old-fashioned.

 

Also, what effect does it actually have? It destroys morale and lowers the fighting strength of a unit. 

 

And, as far as I can tell, Perturabo only did it once.

 

What effect does it have? It kills off the weak and the failures. We may deign the death of a warrior in punishment as needless or stupid, but we come from domesticated society where the human life if valued and are given the philosophy of 'second chances'. For genetically engineered killing machine warriors, there is no room for error, no second chances, and no tolerance of weakness. They levels of punishment varied across the Legions, but the Iron Warriors, Iron Hands, and World Eaters are noted to cull weakness with impunity and this is part of their culture.

 

It certainly doesn't 'lower morale', especially when it comes to the no nonsense warriors of the IV Legion. This is a lesson to show the price of failure and that there will be no further tolerance for such. It may dishearten warriors for a short time, but in the end this teaches them only to prove themselves worthy in the eyes of their gene-father and ensure that they will never fall as their brothers did before. This is something the X Legion would no towards with great agreement.

 

Well my post was clearly about Roman decimation, so yes it does destroy morale.

 

How does killing 1 in every 10, picked by lots, kill off the weak and the failures? What if the SoH did it and Abaddon drew the unlucky lot, or Sigismund or Sevatar? The Iron Warriors were seen as one of the best Legions pre-Perturabo and had been praised by other Primarchs, and Perturabo decimated them simply because they weren't the best? They weren't the best under his leadership either, and I'd even go so far as to say that they were better without him.

 

The Iron Warriors were second to the Imperial Fists, lost at Phall, couldn't take the Imperial Palace before enemy reinforcements arrived and are now skulking in the EoT, not to mention their biggest failure in falling to Chaos. How exactly did that decimation improve the Legion and ensure they would never fall as their brothers did?

[Tenebris]

Well in fact all that was required of you as an Iron Warrior was to climb over the ridge, eat enemy bullets, scale the enemy ramparts and hopefully kill those guys who have been bombarding you with artillery for the past two years of trench warfare. The concept of team is moot here since you were considered expendable as a tool or as a weapon can be. Perturabo did not care for his astartes, what he cared is that his plan was seen trough, that you did your job as a cog in the machine, and more often than not your death, the death of your company or your chapter was planned and predicted way before you even set foot in the trenches. In short you were a number in the legion roster, fit to be detracted when need be. Consider the Iron Warriors as superhuman Death Korps of Krieg... and then it all makes sense. 

[Greyall]

Indeed, point taken. Still seems a waste to throw Astartes bodies at something until it clogs...

 

I wonder if Alpharius and Corax would've respected each other's warring style. There are similarities and things to be admired by each other.

[Perrin]

I'm not saying the decimation bit shouldn't be in the fluff, it's a good character development point for Perturabo and fits with how he has been portrayed so far, and with the general essence of the Iron Warriors.

I'm just confused as to why some people seem to be suggesting decimation is a normal tactic that actually works and that Perturabo was right in using it

[Yogi]

I agree with perrin.

 

Decimation is stupid because. Its arbitrary. Its wasteful. And it essentially demonstrates you can't motivate your men except with the random threat of death.

 

A leader who thought decimation was a good idea should instead give himself a time period say a few years to shape up their legion and make them the "best" and if he fails takes his stupidity and inferiority to the grave via meltagun to the face or something. Put his own life on the line. I could atleast respect that. 

 

Pert is a chump. Worst Primarch ever. At least Angron has an excuse.