Iron Warrior info from book 3?

[Conn Eremon]

Legion reunification with Perturabo is set as late 840s.M30. Though I get that the order of discovery doesn't mean the order unified with the Legions, but Perturabo was the 12th found.

 

Obvious inference is that about 60% of the Primarchs had been found and/or unified with their Legions within the first quarter of the Great Crusade. Which does make some sense, but it also implies that the last smaller bit of Primarchs was spread over a much larger amount of time. It also means that the amount of time Horus had with the Emperor all by himself might have been much shorter than I, at least, believed.

 

Honestly not complaining, just contemplating the implications of it.

 

Edit: And now I am even more confused by the Decimation. The IV Legion did not have a problem of the individual over the unit, as posts in this thread state that decimation would fix. They were stubborn, and began to feel that only their Legion was capable of handling the high attrition battles they kept getting stuck with. They began to take pride in that, and the combination nearly killed them when they refused to seek aid in a particular war front. It was not individual pride, or a hunger for glory. It was a pride in their Legion.

 

They did not have a problem with unity within their own Legion. They had a problem with unity with other Legions. That is what broke them, and saw their star fall. Heck, their non-quixotic nature was even pointed out as a reason why they were so favored by other, non-Astartes, Imperials.

 

So, the idea of the decimation of the IV I like. It's grim, and well in keeping with their lord's character.

 

But what purpose did it honestly serve?

[Conn Eremon]

Honestly, they went from the Legion that took pride in its use, to being the Legion that became overly bitter by its use. And the catalyst for that change was Perturabo's punishment, for which it outright states was simply for the sin of not being the most supreme Legion.

 

Granted, the pride in its use was also destructive to itself.

[Kol Saresk]

I think the decimation was more of a graphic demonstration by Perturabo telling his Legion that they were essentially killing each other. That its one thing to take pride, but its another to be so prideful that it gets your brothers, and yourself, killed. I don't know, I'm not Alan Bligh so I'm not entirely sure of the thought process that went into it.

[Conn Eremon]

And that is all I can think of too. That its intent was to kill that pride. If so, it works and the Legion becomes as bitter as their lord. But then, that bitterness proves equally destructive, and more than just for themselves.

 

But it also directly states that they were being punished for the sin of not being supreme and above all others. Which flies in the face of it being a death of unproductive pride.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, that's just spiffy.

 

"You aren't the Luna Wolves? One in ten! Dead! Now!"

 

Some time later:

 

"My lord, it has been fifty years since your Decimation, and the Legion has yet to become the Lu-Sons of Horus. For that matter, we aren't even the Ultramarines or the Dark Angels. Perhaps it was a mis..."

 

*Sound of a Primarch beating a Triarch to death with a shovel*

 

"ANYONE ELSE WANT TO QUESTION ME? SOMEHOW IT'S DORN'S FAULT I BEAT THIS MAN TO DEATH!"

 

It's like Forge World is afraid that we might forget the Traitor Primarchs are Evil Bad Guys Who Betrayed Their Brothers if they didn't engage in pointless supervillainy at every opportunity.

 

Anyone else feel it is starting to seem like the best way the Emperor could have handled the IV (and the VIII & XII) Primarch was add another to the rolls of the Missing?

[SFH]

Is it wrong that the only problem I find in the above scenario that it would need to be one extremely thick shovel to beat a Space Marine to death?

[Hyaenidae]

*sigh*

 

It was a reformation. A transformation. He dehumanized his sons, and stripped their self worth. He broke them, to remold them into his image, without having to waste resources for retraining his sons, when those resources could be better used to fight for the Imperium.

 

He crafted monsters, to fight against the monsters. He took living beings, and turned them into willing pawns to be sacrificed as needed.

 

There is no deeper meaning. No sudden epiphany. Blunt, brutal, and to the point.

 

Don't like it? Then don't. Next topic.

[Conn Eremon]

*sigh*

 

It was a reformation. A transformation. He dehumanized his sons, and stripped their self worth. He broke them, to remold them into his image, without having to waste resources for retraining his sons, when those resources could be better used to fight for the Imperium.

 

He crafted monsters, to fight against the monsters. He took living beings, and turned them into willing pawns to be sacrificed as needed.

 

There is no deeper meaning. No sudden epiphany. Blunt, brutal, and to the point.

 

Don't like it? Then don't. Next topic.

But there was a deeper meaning. It spells it out. They were not supreme. So they were punished for it. That is it. All that reasoning you got there is great, and works for me. But Extinction makes it clear that that was not actually the case. It was precisely because they were not the best Legion.

 

And again, it is not that I don't like the idea of decimation. It fits with my image of the Legion, for all the reasons you list. I am pointing out, however, that Extinction provides the reason, and it does not fit.

[Hydriatus]

I kinda imagine the Iron Warriors as practically space marine versions of the Death Korps of Krieg myself...though without the quiet faith of the humans of course. And until someone poses the decimation question to the Forge World writers at a seminar, we could truly argue forever on the issue. From my reading of Extermination, he punished them for what they were yes. 

 

Was it merely a punishment for lack of ambition? They accepted the role they fitted, and it was not one Perturabo favoured, having grown up on Olympia being renowned as a weapon smith, as a siege master? Then the Emperor comes and he hopes for something new. Is given a Legion that is so much like his own type cast? So he tries shock tactics to change the mentality? 

 

Again, someone as Forge World at a seminar...or maybe BL...I mean, FW does make good models, but does their fluff writing always match up? (This is a far more general question I now realise O.o) 

[Hyaenidae]

Seriously. No. Deeper. Meaning.

 

Mass punishment is, and has always been, a short solution to a long problem. Perturabo sin is a complete lack of humanity and compassion to those beneath him, and the ramifications afterwards. Again, blunt and brutal. That translated down to his sons from the Decimation, for the most part (Dantioch).

 

The Primarchs are not perfect. Hell, they may be the worst examples of living creatures ever. But they are what they are, and the Legions followed.

 

Great sins can be laid at each of their feet. How is that a surprise to any of us?

[Hydriatus]

Then there's the fact the books are IC written by AK...who shares their initials with a certain Sister of Silence...

 

So, Imperial Propaganda as always. Moving on. 

 

What next? 

[Wade Garrett]

Exactly.

 

I am completely fine with Perturabo killing one of every ten because he is a hard man making hard decisions.

 

But as presented in Extinction, it's an act of petulance. Not callousness.

[MasterofMankind]

Except it couldn't be Propaganda, since it mentions that the Emperor wholeheartedly agreed with Perturabo's decision.

[Marshal Rohr]

I missed all of the text saying it was petulance. I did however see text specifically saying he wanted to remake the legion.

[Brother Heinrich]

Well, that's just spiffy.

 

"You aren't the Luna Wolves? One in ten! Dead! Now!"

 

Some time later:

 

"My lord, it has been fifty years since your Decimation, and the Legion has yet become the Lu-Sons of Horus. For that matter, we aren't even the Ultramarines or the Dark Angels. Perhaps it was a mis..."

 

*Sound of a Primarch beating a Triarch to death with a shovel*

 

"ANYONE ELSE WANT TO QUESTION ME? SOMEHOW IT'S DORN'S FAULT I BEAT THIS MAN TO DEATH!"

 

lmao, this made my day Wade.

[Hyaenidae]

I found the Lodges / Orders to be very interesting. The Lyssatra, Brethren of Thunder, fit my fluff for my Dragoon-Captain so perfectly, I'm concerned that Alan Bligh has wire-tapped my house....

[Conn Eremon]

Seriously. No. Deeper. Meaning.

 

Mass punishment is, and has always been, a short solution to a long problem. Perturabo sin is a complete lack of humanity and compassion to those beneath him, and the ramifications afterwards. Again, blunt and brutal. That translated down to his sons from the Decimation, for the most part (Dantioch).

 

The Primarchs are not perfect. Hell, they may be the worst examples of living creatures ever. But they are what they are, and the Legions followed.

 

Great sins can be laid at each of their feet. How is that a surprise to any of us?

 

It's starting to dawn on me that we are arguing different things. All I am saying is that Perturabo did have a very specific reason for what he did. I'm not looking for a deeper meaning behind that reason, just pointing out that Extinction does illustrate what it was and it contradicts with much of the logic already put forth in this thread. That being that the Legion was becoming a Legion of independent, singular glory-hounds that Perturabo came along and roughly enforced the unit over the individual because they were dying thanks to their former ways. That was not the case. The Legion was already in the same mechanical and non-individualized set-up prior to Perturabo's discovery. Their flaw was that they took pride in that, and this mixed with their already stubborn attitude. This earned them enmity among the other Legions, but put them high in the favor of the other ranking leaders of the Imperium. Eventually, this culminated in a campaign that saw about a quarter of the Legion lost, that the other Legions saw coming and caused those who once looked upon the IVth with favor to stop doing so.

 

Enter Perturabo, who looked upon a Legion newly made his. And he found them to have sinned. Not for failing, for they were still considered "superior," but because "among the Legions they were not already supreme." It's on page 110 where this is said. Perturabo ordered the decimation of his Legion because they were not the best when he found them. "It was not enough for Perturabo that they were merely superior[.]" Not because their former glories had gotten to their heads and blinded them to their failing ways, but because Perturabo felt that his Legion should have appeared before him for the first time as the supreme Legion. Horus was already in command of his Luna Wolves, and Guilliman was already in command of his Ultramarines. Perturabo spent time with the Emperor, learning from him, of the Imperium, his brothers, etc., before taking command of his Legion. So when he looked upon them and found them wanting, he had already seen in action the only two Legions to ever come close to being considered supreme. And then, he ordered them to decimate themselves for not being better than them. Not to remake them into a Legion that would become supreme, but as a punishment for not having been supreme all this time.

 

And that's it. I'm not trying to throw greater sin at Pert's feet than any other Primarch, though my inner Loyalist certainly has its opinion on the matter. I am not saying I am surprised at this. I am not saying that similar sins couldn't be laid at the feet of others. I admitted that their overly prideful nature had already cost them dearly, and likely would have continued to do so without Perturabo's intervention. The decimation may very well have saved the Legion, by preventing them from willingly killing themselves on the front lines just because their stubborn pride made them feel that they had to. And I quite simply like the idea of the decimation. It's about as Iron Warrior as you can get, and I like that. I am just pointing out that the reasoning behind it all is not as it was earlier discussed. Old Pert did remold the Legion in his image by this act, but that was a byproduct, not the intent. The intent was to punish them for not being the very best, like no one ever was.

[Karthak]

Well, that's just spiffy.

 

"You aren't the Luna Wolves? One in ten! Dead! Now!"

 

Some time later:

 

"My lord, it has been fifty years since your Decimation, and the Legion has yet become the Lu-Sons of Horus. For that matter, we aren't even the Ultramarines or the Dark Angels. Perhaps it was a mis..."

 

*Sound of a Primarch beating a Triarch to death with a shovel*

 

"ANYONE ELSE WANT TO QUESTION ME? SOMEHOW IT'S DORN'S FAULT I BEAT THIS MAN TO DEATH!"

 

It's like Forge World is afraid that we might forget the Traitor Primarchs are Evil Bad Guys Who Betrayed Their Brothers if they didn't engage in pointless supervillainy at every opportunity.

 

Anyone else feel it is starting to seem like the best way the Emperor could have handled the IV (and the VIII & XII) Primarch was add another to the rolls of the Missing?

Well, in the case of the VIII it might have gone differently if he assigned Konrad a crack team of psychologists (though it might have ended with Konrad eating them).

[Kais Klip]

 

Well, that's just spiffy.

 

"You aren't the Luna Wolves? One in ten! Dead! Now!"

 

Some time later:

 

"My lord, it has been fifty years since your Decimation, and the Legion has yet become the Lu-Sons of Horus. For that matter, we aren't even the Ultramarines or the Dark Angels. Perhaps it was a mis..."

 

*Sound of a Primarch beating a Triarch to death with a shovel*

 

"ANYONE ELSE WANT TO QUESTION ME? SOMEHOW IT'S DORN'S FAULT I BEAT THIS MAN TO DEATH!"

 

It's like Forge World is afraid that we might forget the Traitor Primarchs are Evil Bad Guys Who Betrayed Their Brothers if they didn't engage in pointless supervillainy at every opportunity.

 

Anyone else feel it is starting to seem like the best way the Emperor could have handled the IV (and the VIII & XII) Primarch was add another to the rolls of the Missing?

Well, in the case of the VIII it might have gone differently if he assigned Konrad a crack team of psychologists (though it might have ended with Konrad eating them).

 

Eating the psychologists, and consulting the crack. An argument could be made for which came first. 

[Kol Saresk]

Well if we're keeping to the theme of Curze using drugs to see the future, shouldn't he use opium?

[No Foes Remain]

I found the Lodges / Orders to be very interesting. The Lyssatra, Brethren of Thunder, fit my fluff for my Dragoon-Captain so perfectly, I'm concerned that Alan Bligh has wire-tapped my house....

Lord Bligh sees all, he knows all....

Hang on... Could Alan Bligh be a face the the Emperor has chosen?

[Kais Klip]

Straight up opium, just like that, with no warm up? Do you think him to be some Cthonian savage? It takes real talent to make dead men talk, and listen to them talk he does. 

[Kol Saresk]

 

Straight up opium, just like that, with no warm up? Do you think him to be some Cthonian savage? It takes real talent to make dead men talk, and listen to them talk he does.

I think him to be a Nostraman gutter rat whose first meal was a dead dog.....

[Silent Observant]

I found the Lodges / Orders to be very interesting. The Lyssatra, Brethren of Thunder, fit my fluff for my Dragoon-Captain so perfectly, I'm concerned that Alan Bligh has wire-tapped my house....

Do you think that by the description of the Brethren of gold and thunder, the legion could get more exclusive wargear in the future? I could see an Brother of thunder loading eldar souls stones in his bolter, and just shrugging "ehh, it xenos it will do something."

[Kol Saresk]

I found the Lodges / Orders to be very interesting. The Lyssatra, Brethren of Thunder, fit my fluff for my Dragoon-Captain so perfectly, I'm concerned that Alan Bligh has wire-tapped my house....

Do you think that by the description of the Brethren of gold and thunder, the legion could get more exclusive wargear in the future? I could see an Brother of thunder loading eldar souls stones in his bolter, and just shrugging "ehh, it xenos it will do something."

Personally I'd say "yes" because as we go on, each Legion should be getting a more in-depth view and should start to really make its own stamp in what an army list of that Legion can potentially do.