Iron Warrior info from book 3?

[Nehekhare]

 

But what purpose did it honestly serve?

 

reminding a legion bent on destroying itself to prove its worth that narcissism does not equal effectivity.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

But what purpose did it honestly serve?

 

reminding a legion bent on destroying itself to prove its worth that narcissism does not equal effectivity.

 

Nope. It was "You're not the best, so nine of you kill one other." 

 

Don't get me wrong, that's all well and good. I like the idea that it forced social shame down their throats to drown out the individual pride that was killing them.

 

But it was done because the IV Legion didn't have a Best Legion badge.

[Wade Garrett]

Don't get me wrong, I like the way heathens sold it.

 

The idea that, like the pre-Primarch Salamanders, the IV were on a path of self destruction, but instead of having everybody hug one another and talk about their feelings like Vulkan did, which takes forever, Perturabo had a tenth of the Legion beaten to death by the other nine.

 

Same result, except the Iron Lord got his point across and got the IV back to winning wars while the Salamanders were still bro snuggling and bonding over s' mores back on the homefront.

 

That's cold, that's callous, that's Perturabo.

 

Sadly, if I understand Cormac correctly, Extermination pretty spells it out that instead this was a "Realizes his Legion is not the Ultramarines. Kills ten percent of them at random." moment of mustache twirling evilness.

[Conn Eremon]

"Their sin was not that they had failed in the Great Crusade's service - for by no measure had this been the case, but instead that they had not reached their full potential. It was not enough for Perturabo that they were merely superior, their fault lay in that among the Legions they were not already supreme." pg. 110

 

That last little bit is pretty dang specific. Among the Legions, of which Perturabo had already been made fully aware of, they were not already, as in by the time Perturabo shows up to give them their once-over, supreme, as in the best.

 

It's not even made out to be an attempt to improve them. That's just a byproduct of it. It is straight up a punishment. You are not the absolute best. Kill your own brother. Now how do you feel? Cold, heartless and bitter? Well, that's convenient, so am I!

[Hyaenidae]

Then imagine it like this. You are given a present, but you're pretty sure it's broken. It could be improved. So, using what you have, with the knowledge you have, you make adjustments. When you're done, it works like you think it should, and you're satisfied with the results of your work.

 

In reality, you've utterly ruined it with rough treatment and poor worksmanship, and it's a miracle it even functions. But, you don't care. You did the work, you know it's the best, because it was done with your own hands. That's good enough to make you feel like it's the best ever.

 

Years go by, and people keep telling you it sucks. Worse, no one sees the hard work you put into it, and either don't acknowledge what you've done, or blatantly tell you it's friggin' terrible. You try to ignore it, but as time goes on, you slowly become angry about it, the more it's brought up. Heck, your brother got the same gift and made changes, and people always praise him! Like, seriously, what the heck? I did work too, you know! I really like what I made, it's the best! But does anybody notice? NooOOOooOOoo... they just praise him instead.... mine's the best, dammit. Mine.

 

Suddenly, one day, you find out that something else you made changes to, years ago, has suddenly caught fire and burnt your house to the ground. Burnt to the ground, because of your shoddy worksmanship. Which, y'know, wasn't your fault, because you did everything you could, and it was the best, because you made it. But it was your worksmanship. But...

 

 

...Now, what do you do? How do you feel, after years of turning the other cheek to ridicule, now seeing such truths that cannot be ignored?

 

It just makes no sense. It was the best....

[Conn Eremon]

I like that reasoning, because it provides a lot of character. But it still assumes that the purpose was to improve the Legion into being what the Perturabo felt was the best. But in truth, it was punishment for not already being what Perturabo felt was the best. Therein lies the distinction that FW makes clear. The lesson imparted, was not the lesson intended.

[Hyaenidae]

You can't punish a resource. It was an improvement, using the tools he had.

 

Now, it's the best.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I cannot wait for my copy of the book to read more into this.

 

WLK

[Plague Angel]

I really don't see that the intention and effect are as separate as you guys are presenting them. Both viewpoints can co-exist; they compliment, not contradict. Inherent in any punishment is an adjunction. When I stole something as a kid and got punished by my dad, the lesson was clear: don't steal.

 

If Pert finds his legion isn't the best, and punishes them for not being the best, I think the lesson inherent of "hey, we should be the best from now on" is rather inextricable. Saying that lesson was incidental instead of intentional feels a bit too black and white.

 

In other words, I think you're both right, and I don't want to keep Liking every single post in this thread as they appear.

[Hyaenidae]

Amusingly, I hate these type of debates, because it reminds me of politicians and lawyers; yet I keep getting likes for speaking my mind. Makes me feel... wrong.

 

If you'll excuse me, I'm going out to the chicken coop, and killing one out of every ten hens I have, so that the others will lay more eggs.

 

 

 

 

...and not tell the rest I'm gonna eat them too.

[helterskelter]

Right, I'm not sure where I'm heading here, but I'm gonna run with it, FW are basically saying Perturabo is a right 'mare to work for, are we ignoring the black library stuff where he manages to convince the lion to give him the cool toys/is the best god damn architect in the entire imperium/ can apply pressure in just the right place so the minimum of force is required to damage/destroy his target? I know he has a mighty temper, but way back when I started 40k in the times of being a 12 year old I started with iron warriors, I loved these grizzly siege masters. I still don't really know where I'm running still, maybe my inner child just doesn't want Perty to be a miserable git.

[Hyaenidae]

Right there with you, to be honest. My excitement about an Iron Warrior HH book died the second I put down Angel Exterminatus.

 

Glory to Our Glorious Emperor, Alan Bligh, Beloved by all.

 

I acknowledge no fane nor diety; only the clarity of Forge Worlds' Horus Heresy books.

[Yogi]

I'm still waiting for IW warrior players to decimate their armies. One model in 10 at random is to be destroyed, after their first major loss. /s

 

On decimation I believe in this thread I said it was colossally dumb, yet I watched as all the IW fans loved it, so I assumed it was good fluff, if they liked it. 

 

If you main IW and you dislike the decimation fluff, I would be surprised as so far I haven't seen that. 

[Hyaenidae]

*shrug* We're strange, heartless, cold folks. Such an act resonates with us.

 

And I'll start smashing one out of every ten models, as soon as I play a World Eater who hammers real nails into his skull, or a Word Bearer player who tattoos his eyelids with devotional script.

[helterskelter]

What about a world eaters player that inserts screw threads into his skull and can screw in a mohawk? :p ive got legs and a torso super glued to a bit of rock that was going to be a NL moritat. I'm now not sure whether I should paint him in iron like colours and arm him differently

[Yogi]

*shrug* We're strange, heartless, cold folks. Such an act resonates with us.

 

And I'll start smashing one out of every ten models, as soon as I play a World Eater who hammers real nails into his skull, or a Word Bearer player who tattoos his eyelids with devotional script.

 

If the world eater has to nail his own actual skull, then IW players should be rounded up for a proper decimation. /s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/s/sacrasm

[Nehekhare]

in truth

 

"War is unequivocal, uncaring, unforgiving and blind. Blind also will be the selection of those who will pay the blood price for the greater failure of your record.", also p. 110.

 

see p. 106 (the price of victory) to learn what that greater failure was.

 

Don't try to make it into a personal whim just because you personally object.

[Kais Klip]

Those in possession of the book, what are the unique micro quirks of the legion, short of what we know to be decreased pain sensitivity from First Heretic?

 

I'm just trying to figure out if you could tell a Fist and a Warrior apart when they're not wearing colours, because at the moment the two just seem to be two sides of the same coin, except one 'good' and the other 'bad' (wanted to use order vs chaos but pert doesn't seem very chaos).

[Hyaenidae]

Dark hair and eyes seem to be a natural occurrence. Temperment is vastly different, obviously.

 

Beyond that, no. But on the same side of the coin, could you tell an Ultramarine apart from an Imperial Fist outside of their armour? A War Hound, prior to the nails?

 

All are equal opportunity employers, and recruit from massive amount of various worlds. Physical differences mean little compared to the Unity of Old.

[Kol Saresk]

The only ones that'd be noticeably different would be the VI, VIII, XVIII and the XIX, although the XIX weren't noticeably different until after Corax was found. But the VIII and the XIX would give you a run. :P

[Kais Klip]

Dark hair and eyes seem to be a natural occurrence. Temperment is vastly different, obviously.

 

Beyond that, no. But on the same side of the coin, could you tell an Ultramarine apart from an Imperial Fist outside of their armour? A War Hound, prior to the nails?

 

All are equal opportunity employers, and recruit from massive amount of various worlds. Physical differences mean little compared to the Unity of Old.

 

I did stress on the minutiae, the small quirks that might balance out on the larger scale of things but are nonetheless present as variations in the gene seed. Speaking with broad brushstrokes, as it were. To that end an Ultramarine would display more discipline, an Imperial fist would be more taciturn and stubborn while the War Hound would be the more aggressive of the three. I’m just trying to find out if the Iron Warriors have more to their name than “Bitter. Stubborn. High Explosives.” 

 

Edit: different in temperament how? So far my impression is that both the fists and ‘warriors are simply ‘stubborn’, and the only difference between the two is where one was saved from pressures by accolades of glory the other one shattered to PTSD, and I’m looking for more depth than that otherwise as it stands both legions could be rolled into one and thrown onto Istvaan III. I’m sure Bligh acknowledges the similarities between the two, but there must be a ‘however’ that separates them into two distinct entities beyond attacker and defender. 

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Is there a background/fluff summary on the Iron Warriors, like we've seen for the,

Raven Guard

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289401-raven-guard-fluff-from-extermination/

Alpha Legion

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/

Imperial Fist

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288853-if-background-from-extermination/

Just try get info/idea for converting new IW models & just general knolwege while I wait a few more weeks to get my book

Thanks

IP

Edit - type the post in a rush

[Kais Klip]

No, but I’m sure this thread is supposed to be it. And the Alpha Legion’s thread is no better than this one. 

[Hyaenidae]

Is there a background/fluff summary on the Iron Warriors, like we've seen for the, just try get info/idea for converting new IW models & just general knolwege while I wait a few more weeks to get my book

Raven Guard

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/289401-raven-guard-fluff-from-extermination/

Alpha Legion

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288871-al-fluff-from-book-3/

Imperial Fist

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/288853-if-background-from-extermination/

Thanks

IP

I would really like to, honest, but I'm so damn busy ramping up for the ETL III, I just don't have the time. My sincerest apologies.

[minigun762]

"Their sin was not that they had failed in the Great Crusade's service - for by no measure had this been the case, but instead that they had not reached their full potential. It was not enough for Perturabo that they were merely superior, their fault lay in that among the Legions they were not already supreme." pg. 110

 

If that is the full quote, it seems pretty clear to me that the issue with the IW wasn't not being the best legion but not being the best they could be.

He sees that they are broken and just fix them, otherwise they will never meet their potential or his expectations.